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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 17:20:17 GMT
To put some things in order - after past events Valve decided to cover their legal standpoint by providing certain criteria within Steam's Early Access program. Most notably is the addition of "What defines a games 'release'?" In which they mention that it is up to the developer to determine when a game is 'finished' and therefor ready for release. And that it is entirely possible that a game will not be finished (for a variety of reasons). And this is relatively reasonable. Some games (like the abovementioned "Towns") are deemed to be 'unfinished' when the developer chooses to stop development. In most cases this is if the game proves to be unpopular or if there are other reasons why the developer is no longer capable of finishing their product. Early Access has no timelimit set by Valve, so technically you could 'stay in development' forever, without ever getting in trouble. However that isn't what 22cans is doing is it? They are taking money from one platform and developing a game for another platform - claiming that the game is 'developed for both platforms' (when it is pretty obvious that we're looking at a modified version of the mobile game) and with the promise that at a later date they'll continue development on the game originally promised on the storepage. So we have the following: - Technicality: Godus is a cross-platform development. (This is questionable currently because of the clear evidence that the game we have is a modified mobile version, and only started to get more PC attention after a riot by the fans.)
- Technicality: Godus has no definitive releasedate, so 22cans can keep claiming that 'one day' they will deliver on their promises without ever having to provide actual proof.
- Technicality: Godus is originally a kickstarter game, but here also are undefined requirements on deliver. Under the pretense of the changing nature of gamedevelopment and the argument that not all features are currently in the game yet. There are a number of originally promised features currently absent from the game. Some of these features are rumored to have been cut entirely while others are being pushed into a "perhaps 1+ year from now" position. (Jupitersized world, familiars, choice/consequence, diversity - just to name a few examples.)
So what, as long as you remain vague enough, you can do just about anything using Steam Early Access and there's nothing they can do to stop you? I'm fairly certain that if you push those boundaries long enough, sooner or later they'll snap on you. Anywho, I suspect that its just about time for you (George) to go home for the day. So I wish you a fine evening and a good night. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 17:22:31 GMT
Thats what you say now... Yet we both know this discussion is significantly older than 1 day... As the mobile/F2P nature has been at odds for over half a year now. Claiming that you have definitive plans for changes in the nearby future, does not change a thing about the game as it is right now and as you are selling it right now. 22cans has you effectively stalling for time, as it has had Matthew before you. ACTUÁLLY, not technically, the mobile/ftp argument has bee going on much longer than over half a year, even more than a year. If I recall the history (correct me if I'm wrong, Backers), it's been in contention since the very first Alpha test, exclusive only to Alphan level Backers. They(22Cans) were called out on it from day one, and initially not only denied it but proceeded to do everything to backpedal and hide the obvious - so far as locking and deleting Aplha forum threads (they were accused of editing the KS pledge, but I think that was unsubstantiated). They eventually rescinded and admitted they were focusing on the mobile platform, and promised it wouldn't negatively affect the PC platform. This was all long before it launched Early Acces on Steam - which ended up practically repeating exactly what the Aplhas experienced. They have made much headway in rectifying those those early misteps and oversights, though they still have a long way to go to repair the damage that was done. Yes, I actually received a warning for bringing up the term "gems" and demanding to know if this would ever be a F2p. We did not let up once we saw the gems in the Alpha and they posted that it was not a F2p and they hated any type of Farmville FB games. We asked about it when they signed with the distributor and were again told this would in no means affect they type of game they were creating. All of this about the threads and warnings is true. Each step of the way the backers called them on it and each time we were deceived initially. This is why it is so upsetting to see the Steam buyers being mislead in a similar fashion. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 5, 2014 17:26:29 GMT
Thats what you say now... Yet we both know this discussion is significantly older than 1 day... As the mobile/F2P nature has been at odds for over half a year now. Better make that about 15 months. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 17:26:43 GMT
It is simply a legal loophole to get around deceiving people. How it is a legal loop hole? - Can you download Godus for free on PC (without pirating it)? No.
- Does the game have any in-game micro-transactions for real-world cash? No.
- Is there an upfront cost associated with purchasing the game? Yes.
Therefore, by definition, it's not a free-to-play game. F2P does not denote a genre - after all, both Nosgoth and Warframe are F2P games and they're a million miles away from FarmVille or SO. It is, by definition and in actual fact, a monetisation method. Do we employ such a method in Godus for PC. No - and, tbh, if I was looking for an F2P god game and found Godus, which carries an up-front cost, I'd be pretty confused as to why it was listed as such. Does the game have wait timers that need to be improved? Yes, and we're working on it. The fact that we haven't got it right yet shouldn't be a surprise or even a cause for concern, because the game is still very much in development... as evidenced by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 17:28:27 GMT
Anywho, I suspect that its just about time for you (George) to go home for the day. So I wish you a fine evening and a good night. You obviously have a far more generous (optimistic?) opinion of my working hours than the job demands... |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 5, 2014 17:31:49 GMT
ACTUÁLLY, not technically, the mobile/ftp argument has bee going on much longer than over half a year, even more than a year. If I recall the history (correct me if I'm wrong, Backers), it's been in contention since the very first Alpha test, exclusive only to Alphan level Backers. They(22Cans) were called out on it from day one, and initially not only denied it but proceeded to do everything to backpedal and hide the obvious - so far as locking and deleting Aplha forum threads (they were accused of editing the KS pledge, but I think that was unsubstantiated). They eventually rescinded and admitted they were focusing on the mobile platform, and promised it wouldn't negatively affect the PC platform. This was all long before it launched Early Acces on Steam - which ended up practically repeating exactly what the Aplhas experienced. They have made much headway in rectifying those those early misteps and oversights, though they still have a long way to go to repair the damage that was done. Yes, I actually received a warning for bringing up the term "gems" and demanding to know if this would ever be a F2p. We did not let up once we saw the gems in the Alpha and they posted that it was not a F2p and they hated any type of Farmville FB games. We asked about it when they signed with the distributor and were again told this would in no means affect they type of game they were creating. All of this about the threads and warnings is true. Each step of the way the backers called them on it and each time we were deceived initially. This is why it is so upsetting to see the Steam buyers being mislead in a similar fashion. I remember comments about mobile focus during the KICKSTARTER CAMPAIGN. Oh course, brushed off with unrealistic promises now clearly seen to be no more than false advertising. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 17:31:54 GMT
Thats what you say now... Yet we both know this discussion is significantly older than 1 day... As the mobile/F2P nature has been at odds for over half a year now. Better make that about 15 months. They denied it for a long time, they admitted the focus only 'recently'. Makes it a bit of an awkward discussion as to what time we use. When *we* or when *they* were ready to admit it. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 5, 2014 17:36:56 GMT
Better make that about 15 months. They denied it for a long time, they admitted the focus only 'recently'. Makes it a bit of an awkward discussion as to what time we use. When *we* or when *they* were ready to admit it. Yeah, but what they admitted and when is not what I was referring to. The discussion has been ongoing since the first alpha build when we were introduced to pink bubbles and gems, which was iirc in April of 2013. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 5, 2014 17:39:55 GMT
Well, not to defend 22cans exactly in this matter, but I believe they can't list this game as f2p on Steam because it's a purchasable game; e.g. NOT free to play on the pc. Thus, likewise, I think the reason is it has to be a "pay-to-access" game (at this stage) because they have a legal obligation (to the ks backers) to actually sell the game on PC - i'm pretty certain to give it away free in Early Access on PC would be againt the rules as set in the ks pledge (at least until sometime after final release) since backers didn't donate money to develop a free game. Of course, that's exactly why we're so upset about the heavy lean towards the f2p model in the current, and past, pc versions of this game - that and that it's mobile counterpart is free to play. But let's not get too carried away with our distain to oversimplify the issues, and convdniently forget the historical specifics, to suit our arguement. {Ps. Trying to follow this conversation and then reply with any length, all on a Kindle Fire, is an effort of frustration and futility, and maddeningly slow. The text editing blows massive balls.}  |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 17:40:41 GMT
It is simply a legal loophole to get around deceiving people. How it is a legal loop hole? - Can you download Godus for free on PC (without pirating it)? No.
- Does the game have any in-game micro-transactions for real-world cash? No.
- Is there an upfront cost associated with purchasing the game? Yes.
Therefore, by definition, it's not a free-to-play game. F2P does not denote a genre - after all, both Nosgoth and Warframe are F2P games and they're a million miles away from FarmVille or SO. It is, by definition and in actual fact, a monetisation method. Do we employ such a method in Godus for PC. No - and, tbh, if I was looking for an F2P god game and found Godus, which carries an up-front cost, I'd be pretty confused as to why it was listed as such. Does the game have wait timers that need to be improved? Yes, and we're working on it. The fact that we haven't got it right yet shouldn't be a surprise or even a cause for concern, because the game is still very much in development... as evidenced by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. It's a legal loophole because you use the term "Early Access" to be able to charge for the game and yet still have a game that is very much just a F2p but yet can claim it will change possibly at some point in the future. That's a legal loophole, Steam should adjust their rules to state that no devs can promote a game of one category that is in fact at this time another one. You guys have admitted to focusing on your mobile game and your mobile game is a F2p. It is monetized with a shop, not on right now, and the same timers that have gotten worse and more leaning to F2p than better away from it, and the core items of your game for advancement otherwise known as stickers are going to be for sale in your gem shop. Also, the mention of the fountain that needs to be clicked and they need for constant clicking to acquire belief that can be bought by gems is a micro transaction feature you have not fully implemented yet. The game has the mechanics of a F2p in that without being able to buy Gems the timers and sticker, cards and overall advancement is intolerable to most. I am finding it really hard to believe that the timers have not been adjusted yet, they were better in Alpha than now, and I am an Alpha backer, so I know this and so why are they still so insanely long if not to push for players in the mobile version to buy gems from the shop? They made them LONGER as their development has progressed. You are right about one thing, 22cans should not be charging for it when it has a shop in it, whether the shop is turned on at the moment or not. You are making a mobile F2p and testing the waters by selling it on Early Access as a non F2p, which just shouts unfair. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 17:41:00 GMT
It is simply a legal loophole to get around deceiving people. How it is a legal loop hole? - Can you download Godus for free on PC (without pirating it)? No.
- Does the game have any in-game micro-transactions for real-world cash? No.
- Is there an upfront cost associated with purchasing the game? Yes.
Therefore, by definition, it's not a free-to-play game. F2P does not denote a genre - after all, both Nosgoth and Warframe are F2P games and they're a million miles away from FarmVille or SO. It is, by definition and in actual fact, a monetisation method. Do we employ such a method in Godus for PC. No - and, tbh, if I was looking for an F2P god game and found Godus, which carries an up-front cost, I'd be pretty confused as to why it was listed as such. Does the game have wait timers that need to be improved? Yes, and we're working on it. The fact that we haven't got it right yet shouldn't be a surprise or even a cause for concern, because the game is still very much in development... as evidenced by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying here that if EA had *SOLD* Dungeon Keeper mobile rather than providing it for free. They would've had no issues with the UK and EU regulations and would've gotten away with it entirely. That the practice of providing such a game - be it with or without inclusion of microtransactions - is completely irrelevant as soon as you add a pricetag to it. Personally I don't think it is that odd that people expect you to be fair about the nature of your game. I mean, you're being relatively upfront about this information to us - so why is it that you (22cans as a whole) are so reluctant to provide the same information to a prospective buyer on the store page? It wouldn't be too hard to provide an up-to-date accounting of the current status and future status of the game (infact I know of several Early Access games that DO exactly that on their store page). We're not expecting you to deliver us these changes *now*, we're not expecting you to cease development of the mobile game, some of us are even willing to give you the time and space to do exactly that (finishing the mobile game) and are basicly just hoping you'll follow through on the other promise aswell. All we ask in return is that you provide prospective buyers looking on the store page with the same information that is provided to us. Which most notably is that Godus right now is effectively a modified version of the F2P mobile game going by the same title which is being developed 'alongside' the PC (and Mac/Linux) version of the game. And that as such, the current focus of development is to finish that mobile version first and to return to the PC after (with an apparent estimate timeframe of "later this year"). |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 17:47:05 GMT
Well, not to defend 22cans exactly in this matter, but I believe they can't list this game as f2p on Steam because it's a purchasable game; e.g. NOT free to play on the pc. Thus, likewise, I think the reason is it has to be a "pay-to-access" game (at this stage) because they have a legal obligation (to the ks backers) to actually sell the game on PC - i'm pretty certain to give it away free in Early Access on PC would be againt the rules as set in the ks pledge (at least until sometime after final release) since backers didn't donate money to develop a free game. Of course, that's exactly why we're so upset about the heavy lean towards the f2p model in the current, and past, pc versions of this game - that and that it's mobile counterpart is free to play. But let's not get too carried away with our distain to oversimplify the issues, and convdniently forget the historical specifics, to suit our arguement. Its not a F2P game - however the current focus of development and therefor the subsequent current version of the game *IS* that of a F2P game. As such, the game will be resembling a F2P game untill such a time that this changes and that more PC-focused features are sufficiently available. Seems to me that this is information you'd want to know before buying a game? So information that should be provided on the storepage. Afterall, wouldn't you like to know where your money is going and what you're getting for your money? Moreover, to have a reasonable estimate on when you'll be receiving the product you paid for (if you'll be receiving it at all, which is not assured through Steam's E A program) As for whether or not releasing the game for free on Steam Early Access for free would be against any rules - I don't think it actually is... Though a lot of kickstarter backers would be pretty pissed off. I'm fairly sure that it doesn't say on kickstarter that any product made through its methods actually has to be SOLD. |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 5, 2014 17:50:11 GMT
It is simply a legal loophole to get around deceiving people. How it is a legal loop hole? - Can you download Godus for free on PC (without pirating it)? No.
- Does the game have any in-game micro-transactions for real-world cash? No.
- Is there an upfront cost associated with purchasing the game? Yes.
Therefore, by definition, it's not a free-to-play game. F2P does not denote a genre - after all, both Nosgoth and Warframe are F2P games and they're a million miles away from FarmVille or SO. It is, by definition and in actual fact, a monetisation method. Do we employ such a method in Godus for PC. No - and, tbh, if I was looking for an F2P god game and found Godus, which carries an up-front cost, I'd be pretty confused as to why it was listed as such. Does the game have wait timers that need to be improved? Yes, and we're working on it. The fact that we haven't got it right yet shouldn't be a surprise or even a cause for concern, because the game is still very much in development... as evidenced by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. Is the game FTP on mobile? YES. Did your company outright lie to backers about that for months? YES. Did your company in fact try to censor backers who raised concerns about this very issue before admitting the truth? YES. Did your company explicitly state that they would not have publishers, then blatantly went out and got a publisher? YES. Did your company in fact sell an entirely different concept of a persistent mobile/pc game that they cannot at all deliver due to the FTP nature of the mobile game? YES. This is who you choose to work for. Seriously, read this thread. You're forced to rationalize their actions by the flimsiest of technicalities and semantics, man. Oh, here's a question - can you definitely say that there will never be a shop in the pc version, of any kind? Not a required shop, but one for peripherals, perhaps? Can you state that, definitively? |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 17:50:46 GMT
How it is a legal loop hole? - Can you download Godus for free on PC (without pirating it)? No.
- Does the game have any in-game micro-transactions for real-world cash? No.
- Is there an upfront cost associated with purchasing the game? Yes.
Therefore, by definition, it's not a free-to-play game. F2P does not denote a genre - after all, both Nosgoth and Warframe are F2P games and they're a million miles away from FarmVille or SO. It is, by definition and in actual fact, a monetisation method. Do we employ such a method in Godus for PC. No - and, tbh, if I was looking for an F2P god game and found Godus, which carries an up-front cost, I'd be pretty confused as to why it was listed as such. Does the game have wait timers that need to be improved? Yes, and we're working on it. The fact that we haven't got it right yet shouldn't be a surprise or even a cause for concern, because the game is still very much in development... as evidenced by the fact it's a Steam Early Access title. It's a legal loophole because you use the term "Early Access" to be able to charge for the game and yet still have a game that is very much just a F2p but yet can claim it will change possibly at some point in the future. That's a legal loophole, Steam should adjust their rules to state that no devs can promote a game of one category that is in fact at this time another one. The fact of the matter is that regardless of how the game plays - and I agree improvements need to be made in this area - Godus on PC is not a F2P game and labelling as such would be confusing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying here that if EA had *SOLD* Dungeon Keeper mobile rather than providing it for free. They would've had no issues with the UK and EU regulations and would've gotten away with it entirely. That the practice of providing such a game - be it with or without inclusion of microtransactions - is completely irrelevant as soon as you add a pricetag to it. Yes, that's precisely what I'm saying. That doesn't speak to the quality of the game, which would be born out in reviews, however in that example EA wouldn't have been able to list it as a free-to-play game, and therefore they wouldn't have fallen afoul of the regulators. Personally I don't think it is that odd that people expect you to be fair about the nature of your game. I mean, you're being relatively upfront about this information to us - so why is it that you (22cans as a whole) are so reluctant to provide the same information to a prospective buyer on the store page? It wouldn't be too hard to provide an up-to-date accounting of the current status and future status of the game (infact I know of several Early Access games that DO exactly that on their store page). We're not expecting you to deliver us these changes *now*, we're not expecting you to cease development of the mobile game, some of us are even willing to give you the time and space to do exactly that (finishing the mobile game) and are basicly just hoping you'll follow through on the other promise aswell. All we ask in return is that you provide prospective buyers looking on the store page with the same information that is provided to us. Which most notably is that Godus right now is effectively a modified version of the F2P mobile game going by the same title which is being developed 'alongside' the PC (and Mac/Linux) version of the game. And that as such, the current focus of development is to finish that mobile version first and to return to the PC after (with an apparent estimate timeframe of "later this year"). As I said, I'll be only too happy to update the Steam store description, incorporating community feedback, once the Settlement update has been released. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 17:54:20 GMT
Oh, here's a question - can you definitely say that there will never be a shop in the pc version, of any kind? Not a required shop, but one for peripherals, perhaps? Can you state that, definitively? As far as I'm aware, we have no plans to charge real-world cash to unlock in-game content on PC. There is the caveat that might change for cosmetic items - like in DotA2 or LoL - however we've no plans for that at all right now, I'm just speculating as it's not beyond the realms of possibility. As for an in-game shop that doesn't require real-world cash - i.e. traditional in-game shops, as you'd find in Diablo or Mass Effect or BioShock or just about any game where you can buy or upgrade equipment - that's not off the cards. However, it would never require real-world cash for those items. It would, however, provide a way for people to manually speed up those timers. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 5, 2014 17:54:38 GMT
I feel like we're using the term "free to play" incorrectly... well, not exactly "wrongly" just too loosely. A monetized game is not intrinsically a f2p game; they may share many similarities but are not categorically interchangeable.
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 17:58:45 GMT
The game on my PC is very much a game that although I backed for much more than "free" and no store is available, it is still a game full of F2p mechanics. I agree that the store description should reflect exactly what types of mechanics and timers are in this game. It is not the real PC game as you have kept saying, that sprint is due later, this is a mobile focus that is on a PC platform. Your finished mobile game is going to be a F2p and this is exactly what the buyers should be aware of. The timers getting longer over the last year was in itself quite telling. If it looks like a duck.....  |
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Post by rubgish on Aug 5, 2014 18:04:57 GMT
Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you're saying here that if EA had *SOLD* Dungeon Keeper mobile rather than providing it for free. They would've had no issues with the UK and EU regulations and would've gotten away with it entirely. That the practice of providing such a game - be it with or without inclusion of microtransactions - is completely irrelevant as soon as you add a pricetag to it. Personally I don't think it is that odd that people expect you to be fair about the nature of your game. I mean, you're being relatively upfront about this information to us - so why is it that you (22cans as a whole) are so reluctant to provide the same information to a prospective buyer on the store page? It wouldn't be too hard to provide an up-to-date accounting of the current status and future status of the game (infact I know of several Early Access games that DO exactly that on their store page). We're not expecting you to deliver us these changes *now*, we're not expecting you to cease development of the mobile game, some of us are even willing to give you the time and space to do exactly that (finishing the mobile game) and are basicly just hoping you'll follow through on the other promise aswell. All we ask in return is that you provide prospective buyers looking on the store page with the same information that is provided to us. Which most notably is that Godus right now is effectively a modified version of the F2P mobile game going by the same title which is being developed 'alongside' the PC (and Mac/Linux) version of the game. And that as such, the current focus of development is to finish that mobile version first and to return to the PC after (with an apparent estimate timeframe of "later this year"). Your dungeon keeper point is correct. The ruling focused on the fact that the game advertised itself as "free to play", but that to actually reasonably play the game, you had to pay money. The ruling says nothing about microtransactions being bad or anything of that kind, it's only about the false advertising element. If they called it say "invest to play" or charged a £0.01 fee to download, then everything they did would be perfectly fine legally. I have a couple of questions for those who are upset about the mobile development: - Would you mind that they were doing mobile if instead of focusing for a few months on mobile, then focusing for a few months (or however long) on PC, that they ran the developments parallel and split the focus?
- On the assumption that mobile is going to get made (and it always was going to get made), do you not prefer that the mobile and PC games are as separate as possible? I know from the very start a major concern of mine was that PC-Mobile interaction wasn't going to work (see for example my thread a couple of months back).
- As I mentioned earlier in this thread, once they get mobile godus released they should hopefully receive an income source that then allows then to spend longer developing the PC version, isn't that a good thing?
Basically I think mobile Godus is in the long run a good thing for the game. It'll hopefully provide the long-term stability required for 22cans to continue developing new stuff for PC godus for a long time, up until the point where it's developed enough that PC godus is well played & the continuous influx of new players provides a good income source (and of course the release of hats for followers would make them $$$$).
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 18:05:26 GMT
I feel like we're using the term "free to play" incorrectly. A monetized game is not intrinsically a f2p game; they may share many similarities but are not categorically interchangeable. You are right and I have played plenty of F2p games so I recognize the mechanics when I see them. Any features that are in the game to make it more intolerable to play without buying out of it with real cash is F2p. Whether it is non stop clicking, insanely long timers, or advancement levels that are impossible to do in your children's school years without cracking open your wallet. Point blank, if the game is borderline unplayable without spending real money it is F2p. I also disagree that just because you tricked people into also Paying for this game, it does not change the core mechanics of the gameplay. Cafe World is a cool fun game to play for the first several levels and then all the things you need to progress cost real cash. Farmville needs you to jump back into the game to make sure you click your fields before they die unless you use real cash to avert this by their special buffs for sale in the shop. SO will have all your wells, mines and buildings spoil but if you are willing to pay real money you can buy an endless well or such. How can anyone that has played Godus not admit that Godus as it stands today is a F2p with the shop turned off and people are paying cash to well...........pay more cash. |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 5, 2014 18:10:40 GMT
You know, there is a more exact term for this - pay to win.
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