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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 5, 2014 18:14:42 GMT
I have a couple of questions for those who are upset about the mobile development: - Would you mind that they were doing mobile if instead of focusing for a few months on mobile, then focusing for a few months (or however long) on PC, that they ran the developments parallel and split the focus?
- On the assumption that mobile is going to get made (and it always was going to get made), do you not prefer that the mobile and PC games are as separate as possible? I know from the very start a major concern of mine was that PC-Mobile interaction wasn't going to work (see for example my thread a couple of months back).
- As I mentioned earlier in this thread, once they get mobile godus released they should hopefully receive an income source that then allows then to spend longer developing the PC version, isn't that a good thing?
Basically I think mobile Godus is in the long run a good thing for the game. It'll hopefully provide the long-term stability required for 22cans to continue developing new stuff for PC godus for a long time, up until the point where it's developed enough that PC godus is well played & the continuous influx of new players provides a good income source (and of course the release of hats for followers would make them $$$$).
The thing that bothers me about mobile development is the huge degree that they lied about it - that what they pitched was a cross-platform game as a persistent game, meaning, you can play at home on pc, then play your same game on mobile. What they're delivering, instead, is a FTP game. If they were honest with their pitch, as in, on kickstarter, if they were clear about their intent to develop a pc game and a ftp mobile version of the game, I'd have no issue, since that's exactly what they're doing. I have doubts it would have been funded, but whatever. So as it stands, since clearly, there's no stopping the FTP mobile game, yes, I prefer the mobile and pc games are as separate as possible. If they receive good income from the mobile game, is that a good thing? That is entirely dependent upon what they do with their resources. Right now, I'd say I'm skeptical, because what they've proven capable of doing with resources so far is develop what I'd generously categorize as a pretty shitty game. Right now, the mobile game is what we have on PC, plus gemstore. That means, it's a terrible game with in-app purchases. Whoo-fuckin-hoo. If that does well, that's a good thing for the employees, but all that means is they were able to make a terrible game fiscally viable. I wouldn't call that a good thing, personally. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 18:21:04 GMT
I have a couple of questions for those who are upset about the mobile development: - Would you mind that they were doing mobile if instead of focusing for a few months on mobile, then focusing for a few months (or however long) on PC, that they ran the developments parallel and split the focus?
- On the assumption that mobile is going to get made (and it always was going to get made), do you not prefer that the mobile and PC games are as separate as possible? I know from the very start a major concern of mine was that PC-Mobile interaction wasn't going to work (see for example my thread a couple of months back).
- As I mentioned earlier in this thread, once they get mobile godus released they should hopefully receive an income source that then allows then to spend longer developing the PC version, isn't that a good thing?
Basically I think mobile Godus is in the long run a good thing for the game. It'll hopefully provide the long-term stability required for 22cans to continue developing new stuff for PC godus for a long time, up until the point where it's developed enough that PC godus is well played & the continuous influx of new players provides a good income source (and of course the release of hats for followers would make them $$$$).
For your first point - I would have no problems with this. Under the requirement that the storepage CLEARLY states how this process works. To make it so that all buyers are undeniably aware of this method of development and nobody can buy the game without knowledge of its dual nature. For your second point - I do prefer that mobile and PC are as seperate as possible. Which is the very problem right now because we are effectively playtesting the mobile version. Not the PC version. And there has been a very long and ongoing discussion where Peter/22cans claim that there is nothing wrong with mobile games (and PC players shouldn't complain) and where players like myself point out that while there's nothing inherently wrong with mobile games, they are not the games we choose to play and pay for. (Hence the requirement to inform buyers on the store page for PC properly) And for your third point - IF.... they get there... But as the Early Access rules clearly state, there is no guarantee to this. A developer has no obligation to actually release a 'finished' version of the game. As such 22cans would theoretically be in a legally 'safe' position to simply abandon the steam version in its entirety once they have launched their mobile version. But keeping it up untill then utilizing it as a testing platform and for some additional income. Ultimately we have no guarantee that they infact WILL follow up on this promise or not. And the longer this stays in development, the more likely it becomes that money runs out and that we'll never see a product that meets the standards of what we originally were promised. (Which is a fair worry given recent events on Early Access.) So yes, should they indeed fullfill those promises and the mobile version becomes somewhat of a success. This could potentially mean a fresh in-flux of money and thus a better version for the PC. If the incorporate cosmetics and it hits off like hat fortress we could potentially be looking at even more budget. Though when we start gathering the facts and playing the odds. For every Team Fortress, there are dozens of failed attempts and for every Candy Crush there are hundreds of failed attempts. The statistical likelyhood of this success happening to Godus are not in 22cans' favor. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 18:21:53 GMT
You know, there is a more exact term for this - pay to win. By that logic, surely all games with an upfront cost are pay-to-win? After all, you cant beat the game unless you pay for it. As it is, since there are zero micro-transactions involved with Godus on PC, it is not pay-to-win in the traditionally understood sense of the term. |
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Post by rubgish on Aug 5, 2014 18:25:12 GMT
The thing that bothers me about mobile development is the huge degree that they lied about it - that what they pitched was a cross-platform game as a persistent game, meaning, you can play at home on pc, then play your same game on mobile. What they're delivering, instead, is a FTP game. If they were honest with their pitch, as in, on kickstarter, if they were clear about their intent to develop a pc game and a ftp mobile version of the game, I'd have no issue, since that's exactly what they're doing. I have doubts it would have been funded, but whatever. So as it stands, since clearly, there's no stopping the FTP mobile game, yes, I prefer the mobile and pc games are as separate as possible. If they receive good income from the mobile game, is that a good thing? That is entirely dependent upon what they do with their resources. Right now, I'd say I'm skeptical, because what they've proven capable of doing with resources so far is develop what I'd generously categorize as a pretty shitty game. Right now, the mobile game is what we have on PC, plus gemstore. That means, it's a terrible game with in-app purchases. Whoo-fuckin-hoo. If that does well, that's a good thing for the employees, but all that means is they were able to make a terrible game fiscally viable. I wouldn't call that a good thing, personally. I agree it's not what the advertised, but I don't believe it was intentional lying. I'm basing this off the fact we know it's Peter making these claims, and that he says lots of things and only some of them turn out to be possible. I don't think a persistent cross-device world is possible while still keeping it as a PC game. Mobiles have limited power, screen size, controls etc. that means if you want to port an exact copy of the mobile game to the PC, the PC version will be a shitty PC game. I think they realised that, and that is why over time the PC and Mobile versions are becoming more and more different, now to the extent that they are separating development out between the two different platforms. As for it being a shitty mobile game? Well I'm not so convinced on that point. Any mobile game on the PC would be shitty, but I think that Godus actually compares pretty well to a lot of current F2P games out there. When I first got my mobile I spent hours and hours on some shitty dragon breeding game that required me to do nothing but click every few hours and wait and wait and wait, but even so I enjoyed playing it. Godus mobile actually does have quite a lot to do for a mobile game. It's just we are comparing mobile standards to PC standards, and mobile standards are currently waaaay behind PC standards. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 18:26:16 GMT
If the finished game is no fun to play without pulling cash out of pocket in a gem shop, you can call it The Purple people eater, it will still be a duck.
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 18:28:17 GMT
The thing that bothers me about mobile development is the huge degree that they lied about it - that what they pitched was a cross-platform game as a persistent game, meaning, you can play at home on pc, then play your same game on mobile. What they're delivering, instead, is a FTP game. If they were honest with their pitch, as in, on kickstarter, if they were clear about their intent to develop a pc game and a ftp mobile version of the game, I'd have no issue, since that's exactly what they're doing. I have doubts it would have been funded, but whatever. So as it stands, since clearly, there's no stopping the FTP mobile game, yes, I prefer the mobile and pc games are as separate as possible. If they receive good income from the mobile game, is that a good thing? That is entirely dependent upon what they do with their resources. Right now, I'd say I'm skeptical, because what they've proven capable of doing with resources so far is develop what I'd generously categorize as a pretty shitty game. Right now, the mobile game is what we have on PC, plus gemstore. That means, it's a terrible game with in-app purchases. Whoo-fuckin-hoo. If that does well, that's a good thing for the employees, but all that means is they were able to make a terrible game fiscally viable. I wouldn't call that a good thing, personally. I agree it's not what the advertised, but I don't believe it was intentional lying. I'm basing this off the fact we know it's Peter making these claims, and that he says lots of things and only some of them turn out to be possible. I don't think a persistent cross-device world is possible while still keeping it as a PC game. Mobiles have limited power, screen size, controls etc. that means if you want to port an exact copy of the mobile game to the PC, the PC version will be a shitty PC game. I think they realised that, and that is why over time the PC and Mobile versions are becoming more and more different, now to the extent that they are separating development out between the two different platforms. As for it being a shitty mobile game? Well I'm not so convinced on that point. Any mobile game on the PC would be shitty, but I think that Godus actually compares pretty well to a lot of current F2P games out there. When I first got my mobile I spent hours and hours on some shitty dragon breeding game that required me to do nothing but click every few hours and wait and wait and wait, but even so I enjoyed playing it. Godus mobile actually does have quite a lot to do for a mobile game. It's just we are comparing mobile standards to PC standards, and mobile standards are currently waaaay behind PC standards. Are you speaking of Steam Early Access or what happened to the backers? As an Alpha backer, I trusted what I was told until it was no longer true. This alone does not make me feel that any future misrepresentation is accidental. |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 5, 2014 18:28:25 GMT
You know, there is a more exact term for this - pay to win. By that logic, surely all games with an upfront cost are pay-to-win? After all, you cant beat the game unless you pay for it. As it is, since there are zero micro-transactions involved with Godus on PC, it is not pay-to-win in the traditionally understood sense of the term. Yet it still covers all another details of the definition except actual paying. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 18:34:05 GMT
You know, there is a more exact term for this - pay to win. By that logic, surely all games with an upfront cost are pay-to-win? After all, you cant beat the game unless you pay for it. As it is, since there are zero micro-transactions involved with Godus on PC, it is not pay-to-win in the traditionally understood sense of the term. More semantics and technicalities. There are no transactions in the game and you paid for it, so it technically doesn't meet the standards set by the definition we acknowledge as 'F2P' - however it is currently effectively a modified version of the mobile game that IS utilizing the F2P model. It is also possible that in the future, a store will be brought back into the game - however this store will utilize ingame currency to unlock or purchase things and as such these are not technically micro-transactions. So since you paid for the game, but aren't going to be paying for such potential micro-transactions - CLEARLY your worries and arguments are void. Effectively you moved the monetary transaction from the micro-transaction to the acquisition and are entirely in the clear should you decide to release the mobile game on PC. And you claim this is not a legal loophole? To resort to our wonderful book of Molyneux quotes - Wasn't it Peter who claimed that it was never his intention that a mobile player pay anything over $20 on the game? |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 18:35:11 GMT
By that logic, surely all games with an upfront cost are pay-to-win? After all, you cant beat the game unless you pay for it. As it is, since there are zero micro-transactions involved with Godus on PC, it is not pay-to-win in the traditionally understood sense of the term. Yet it still covers all another details of the definition except actual paying. And yet "pay" is the first word in "pay to win". What's your point? |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 18:36:54 GMT
So since you paid for the game, but aren't going to be paying for such potential micro-transactions - CLEARLY your worries and arguments are void. Effectively you moved the monetary transaction from the micro-transaction to the acquisition and are entirely in the clear should you decide to release the mobile game on PC. And you claim this is not a legal loophole? Yes, because no loop-hole is being employed here. |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 5, 2014 18:37:32 GMT
Yet it still covers all another details of the definition except actual paying. And yet "pay" is the first word in "pay to win". What's your point? The point is Free to play is a means of distribution and pay to win is a set of game mechanics. Mobile Godus is both. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 18:37:43 GMT
If the finished game is no fun to play without pulling cash out of pocket in a gem shop, you can call it The Purple people eater, it will still be a duck. You will never, ever have to (or even be able to) spend real-world cash on gems in the PC version of Godus, ever. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 18:38:55 GMT
And yet "pay" is the first word in "pay to win". What's your point? The point is Free to play is a means of distribution and pay to win is a set of game mechanics. Mobile Godus is both. Good luck describing Godus as a pay-to-win game anywhere other than this forum. They'd laugh you out of NeoGAF for that. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 18:40:32 GMT
If the finished game is no fun to play without pulling cash out of pocket in a gem shop, you can call it The Purple people eater, it will still be a duck. You will never, ever have to (or even be able to) spend real-world cash on gems in the PC version of Godus, ever. and we will guaranteed get a PC finished version of this game? |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 5, 2014 18:42:29 GMT
Yet it still covers all another details of the definition except actual paying. And yet "pay" is the first word in "pay to win". What's your point? Off Topic: I just had a bizzarro "what-if" type thought about a world where that idea is reversed; a "win-to-pay" model wherein you only pay for the game if you beat/finish it. Likewise, imagine a world where mobile games were around before desktop, and they were now upset that pc players could just pay a one-time fee and not be forced to rely on micro-transactions. Lol. My mind goes to wierd places. XD {I'm at work and using my tablet, so I just can't follow and participate in this convo like I really want to. But it's a nice distraction during the lulls} |
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Post by rubgish on Aug 5, 2014 18:42:46 GMT
Are you speaking of Steam Early Access or what happened to the backers? As an Alpha backer, I trusted what I was told until it was no longer true. This alone does not make me feel that any future misrepresentation is accidental. I honestly feel that a significant portion of the misrepresentation was down to Sam. I mean while he was in charge of comms he sometimes went for over a month without a single forum post. In the 12+ months he was working, we got 340 forum posts (including things like off-topic and him dealing with backing issues), yet on this forum alone we already have over 500 posts from the newer 22cans comms staff. We know an awful lot more about whats going on at 22cans than we have ever done before (remember the few months where we heard basically nothing?). |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 18:43:30 GMT
You will never, ever have to (or even be able to) spend real-world cash on gems in the PC version of Godus, ever. and we will guaranteed get a PC finished version of this game? Yes, we still have every intention of bringing Godus to 100% completion as defined by our Kickstarter pledge levels - Hubworld, Ages, the lot. As for rewards like personalised statues, that is a feature that we'll be looking to implement in the fullness of time. Right now, we think getting the core fundamentals of Godus' gameplay right is a greater priority. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 18:44:32 GMT
Likewise, imagine a world where mobile games were around before desktop, and they were now upset that pc players could just pay a one-time fee and not be forced to rely on micro-transactions. Lol. You mean... like coin-op arcades? |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 5, 2014 18:45:28 GMT
And yet "pay" is the first word in "pay to win". What's your point? OT: I just had a bizzarro "what-if" type thought about a world where that idea is reversed; a "win-to-pay" model wherein you only pay for the game if you beat/finish it. Likewise, imagine a world where mobile games were around before desktop, and they were now upset that pc players could just pay a one-time fee and not be forced to rely on micro-transactions. Lol. My mind goes to wierd places. XD Funny thing is, win-to-pay exists and is called piracy. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 18:46:01 GMT
So George, just as a point of interest.
What would YOU call it, when you take a F2P mobile game, you remove the fees from the micro-transactions and turn them into in-game transactions and you then add a pricetag and sell it on PC, making it technically no longer a F2P mobile game.
BUT you leave the rest of the game as is. Meaning the actual mechanics that would normally define it as a F2P game with micro-transactions.
Since that is effectively what we'd be looking at, at this point in time. Atleast untill such point in time that 22cans gets around to actually altering the game to meet the requirements set on its original sales pitch.
I truely do hope you understand that our problem isn't inherently with the micro-transactions (paying real money for ingame boosts), nor with the fact that a F2P game is free. But our problem is with the underlying mechanics inherent to those kinds of games and the secrecy/lies around the whole development procedure. Shifting the point of monetary transaction from one place to another does not chance the nature of your game.
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