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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 19:01:46 GMT
Are you speaking of Steam Early Access or what happened to the backers? As an Alpha backer, I trusted what I was told until it was no longer true. This alone does not make me feel that any future misrepresentation is accidental. I honestly feel that a significant portion of the misrepresentation was down to Sam. I mean while he was in charge of comms he sometimes went for over a month without a single forum post. In the 12+ months he was working, we got 340 forum posts (including things like off-topic and him dealing with backing issues), yet on this forum alone we already have over 500 posts from the newer 22cans comms staff. We know an awful lot more about whats going on at 22cans than we have ever done before (remember the few months where we heard basically nothing?). I can't really speak as to what came down to Sam or not, I would not feel comfortable even saying that. All I can speak to is what was told to the backers on the 22cans forum from the time we backed it and joined till now. This forum is a whole different ball of wax from either 22cans or Stream because there is no type of company affiliation and so completely open and un-bias, you can't expect any company related forum not to push to show their more positive side, but you also cannot excuse outright deception when questions were asked point blank and told one thing that turned out to be something totally different. This did not happen one time either, there were several instances of it. Now, knowing this information and that all present employees are aware of the discord from this, I would highly doubt IF there was anymore misleading that it would be an accident in any way shape or form. On a totally bias note............I think everyone just loves our forum and can't help themselves.  |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 5, 2014 19:03:36 GMT
and we will guaranteed get a PC finished version of this game? Yes, we still have every intention of bringing Godus to 100% completion as defined by our Kickstarter pledge levels - Hubworld, Ages, the lot. As for rewards like personalised statues, that is a feature that we'll be looking to implement in the fullness of time. Right now, we think getting the core fundamentals of Godus' gameplay right is a greater priority. This phrase right here, that makes me nervous. I was going to say I would hold you to it at your word, but this is not a guarantee that Godus will ever be a finished PC game, so I cannot.  |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 5, 2014 19:05:28 GMT
I remember Christians having a proverb about intentions and path to hell.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 19:08:08 GMT
I honestly feel that a significant portion of the misrepresentation was down to Sam. I mean while he was in charge of comms he sometimes went for over a month without a single forum post. In the 12+ months he was working, we got 340 forum posts (including things like off-topic and him dealing with backing issues), yet on this forum alone we already have over 500 posts from the newer 22cans comms staff. We know an awful lot more about what's going on at 22cans than we have ever done before (remember the few months where we heard basically nothing?).  |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 19:09:49 GMT
So George, just as a point of interest. What would YOU call it, when you take a F2P mobile game, you remove the fees from the micro-transactions and turn them into in-game transactions and you then add a pricetag and sell it on PC, making it technically no longer a F2P mobile game. BUT you leave the rest of the game as is. Meaning the actual mechanics that would normally define it as a F2P game with micro-transactions. Since that is effectively what we'd be looking at, at this point in time. Atleast untill such point in time that 22cans gets around to actually altering the game to meet the requirements set on its original sales pitch. I would call it "not very good". You all know that I think the PC version till needs work to become truly great and that I've been compling a list of community suggestions/requests, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 19:12:14 GMT
Yes, we still have every intention of bringing Godus to 100% completion as defined by our Kickstarter pledge levels - Hubworld, Ages, the lot. As for rewards like personalised statues, that is a feature that we'll be looking to implement in the fullness of time. Right now, we think getting the core fundamentals of Godus' gameplay right is a greater priority. This phrase right here, that makes me nervous. I was going to say I would hold you to it at your word, but this is not a guarantee that Godus will ever be a finished PC game, so I cannot. I can't predict the future and I don't like making promises I know I personally can't keep 100% for certain. That's the only reason why I used such couched phraseology, so please don't read into it beyond that. Godus' design is iterative and therefore change is baked in to the development process, all I know right now is that as a studio, we're committed to delivering on our Kickstarter pledges in the fullness of time (i.e. before the game reaches 100% completion in terms of its development). |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 5, 2014 19:24:53 GMT
Likewise, imagine a world where mobile games were around before desktop, and they were now upset that pc players could just pay a one-time fee and not be forced to rely on micro-transactions. Lol. You mean... like coin-op arcades? Oooh, nicely done. Although they aren't technically "mobile" in the modern sense, they're essentially mobile in that they are technically portable, and require an upfront fee to play. We wished we could play them at home I like the retrospective observation here, revealing a cyclical abstraction in gaming. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 5, 2014 19:28:37 GMT
So George, just as a point of interest. What would YOU call it, when you take a F2P mobile game, you remove the fees from the micro-transactions and turn them into in-game transactions and you then add a pricetag and sell it on PC, making it technically no longer a F2P mobile game. BUT you leave the rest of the game as is. Meaning the actual mechanics that would normally define it as a F2P game with micro-transactions. Since that is effectively what we'd be looking at, at this point in time. Atleast untill such point in time that 22cans gets around to actually altering the game to meet the requirements set on its original sales pitch. I would call it "not very good". You all know that I think the PC version till needs work to become truly great and that I've been compling a list of community suggestions/requests, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. So can we look forward to the next store page update clearly stating something along the lines of, "Our development proceeds through sprints of development that may have differing platform focuses, of which we are presently in the midst of a mobile-focused sprint and as such much of the design available to you is representative of that, but we intend to proceed to a PC-focused sprint within the coming months. Please take this into consideration before you purchase the game, since while adjustments are made to the PC platform during this sprint to account for its differing business model (buy to play vs. free to play), some areas of balance and design may retain elements of the mobile version for the time being." I think that follows with much of what you've been BSing about over the last few pages here, if I'm not mistaken. And this took me all of maybe five minutes to write out. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 5, 2014 19:31:15 GMT
Look at it like this: Whatever else happens, atleast they'll be warm down there!
Morality and source aside - I understand the worry.
Given existing examples of games not being finished, its not strange that people don't like to take anyones word for it without substantial information backing you up.
(Looks at the existing list of 'promises' made by 22cans.)
I do truely hope that 6 months, 1 year or howeverlong it takes from now, we can go out for a drink and you can tell me you were right all along.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 19:32:26 GMT
I would call it "not very good". You all know that I think the PC version till needs work to become truly great and that I've been compling a list of community suggestions/requests, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. So can we look forward to the next store page update clearly stating something along the lines of, "Our development proceeds through sprints of development that may have differing platform focuses, of which we are presently in the midst of a mobile-focused sprint and as such much of the design available to you is representative of that, but we intend to proceed to a PC-focused sprint within the coming months. Please take this into consideration before you purchase the game, since while adjustments are made to the PC platform during this sprint to account for its differing business model (buy to play vs. free to play), some areas of balance and design may retain elements of the mobile version for the time being." I think that follows with much of what you've been BSing about over the last few pages here, if I'm not mistaken. And this took me all of maybe five minutes to write out. Would you mind if I used that verbatim? I mean, it's great and saves me having to compose something from scratch. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 5, 2014 19:39:53 GMT
So can we look forward to the next store page update clearly stating something along the lines of, "Our development proceeds through sprints of development that may have differing platform focuses, of which we are presently in the midst of a mobile-focused sprint and as such much of the design available to you is representative of that, but we intend to proceed to a PC-focused sprint within the coming months. Please take this into consideration before you purchase the game, since while adjustments are made to the PC platform during this sprint to account for its differing business model (buy to play vs. free to play), some areas of balance and design may retain elements of the mobile version for the time being." I think that follows with much of what you've been BSing about over the last few pages here, if I'm not mistaken. And this took me all of maybe five minutes to write out. Would you mind if I used that verbatim? I mean, it's great and saves me having to compose something from scratch. Not at all. Now let's hope you guys can get the game together. >_> |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Aug 5, 2014 19:42:20 GMT
Okay, that'll go up on the store once the Settlements update goes live. If there's a time delay, it will only be due to me being busy, not because I won't be doing it. Anyway, I've bookmarked that post.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 5, 2014 19:46:56 GMT
OT: I just had a bizzarro "what-if" type thought about a world where that idea is reversed; a "win-to-pay" model wherein you only pay for the game if you beat/finish it. Likewise, imagine a world where mobile games were around before desktop, and they were now upset that pc players could just pay a one-time fee and not be forced to rely on micro-transactions. Lol. My mind goes to wierd places. XD Funny thing is, win-to-pay exists and is called piracy. Um, no. Not even close. I don't even known if you have a specific point you're trying to maks with that remark, if so please clarify. Piracy is thievery, and connotates "free via illegal means of acquisition", and if anything it's actually more closely related to the free-to-play model. Suffice to say, win-to-pay would be an improbable and unsustainable method; realistically it would be impractically impossible to regulate, monitor, or enforce. |
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 5, 2014 19:55:32 GMT
Funny thing is, win-to-pay exists and is called piracy. Um, no. Not even close. I don't even known if you have a specific point you're trying to maks with that remark, if so please clarify. Piracy is thievery, and connotates "free via illegal means of acquisition", and if anything it's actually more closely related to the free-to-play model. Suffice to say, win-to-pay would be an improbable and unsustainable method; realistically it would be impractically impossible to regulate, monitor, or enforce. Piracy is only thievery in the physical world. Digital piracy is merely duplication that has, to my knowledge, never been capable of being proven to diminish sales to any significant extent. |
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 5, 2014 20:11:46 GMT
Funny thing is, win-to-pay exists and is called piracy. Um, no. Not even close. I don't even known if you have a specific point you're trying to maks with that remark, if so please clarify. Piracy is thievery, and connotates "free via illegal means of acquisition", and if anything it's actually more closely related to the free-to-play model. Suffice to say, win-to-pay would be an improbable and unsustainable method; realistically it would be impractically impossible to regulate, monitor, or enforce. The main reason for game piracy is either acquisition of games impossible to buy legally (to reasons including lack of money) and/or, what is more important, game trial. Not always there are demos which show the game for what the game is, so looking into everything is quite important in a number of situations. And when you get the chance, and if the game is as good as it positions itself, you buy it. After the game wins your heart. So this is some way of win-to-pay, yes. I, myself, admit to resorting to piracy with a number of games I had no means to buy before. Now we have GOG and Steam, but it wasn't always so, and our Russian stores do not sell any decent games without brain-shattering mind-corrupting perversion instead of translation. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 5, 2014 21:12:59 GMT
I honestly feel that a significant portion of the misrepresentation was down to Sam. I mean while he was in charge of comms he sometimes went for over a month without a single forum post. In the 12+ months he was working, we got 340 forum posts (including things like off-topic and him dealing with backing issues), yet on this forum alone we already have over 500 posts from the newer 22cans comms staff. We know an awful lot more about whats going on at 22cans than we have ever done before (remember the few months where we heard basically nothing?). Don't forget that Sam had a lot more on his plate besides community relations, so that's not really a fair comparison. Aside from that Sam had to deal with stuff that needed to be taken care of in the earlier phase of the project whereas Matthew Allen and Monkeythumbz came in much later when there was presumably significantly less to take care of. Plus they are a two man team. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 5, 2014 21:19:59 GMT
You mean... like coin-op arcades? Oooh, nicely done. Although they aren't technically "mobile" in the modern sense, they're essentially mobile in that they are technically portable, and require an upfront fee to play. We wished we could play them at home I like the retrospective observation here, revealing a cyclical abstraction in gaming. And of course, desktop PC's are much harder to move around than coin-op machines. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 5, 2014 21:24:21 GMT
And when you get the chance, and if the game is as good as it positions itself, you buy it. After the game wins your heart. So this is some way of win-to-pay, yes. Hah. Nicely done. I won't dig any further into the piracy argument, though. I just found the thought of a completely reversed pay scheme to be humorous to consider. |
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Post by engarde on Aug 6, 2014 7:41:49 GMT
This steam early access game that has all these obvious caveats - that's not what I paid for. I paid the kickstarter partner access which morphed into steam as an issuance mechanism and then further morphed to steam early access. So if you want to play the steam early access card you will open up all that delightful Alpha backer venom - not sure that will be a good idea. Which probably means it will be so...
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Post by Danjal on Aug 6, 2014 11:09:14 GMT
The feeling I've got around the whole kickstarter deal is that 22cans believes that they *have* delivered on most of their promises already and that the ones that are still in the works can be 'explained away' under the work-in-progress excuse.
For instance the 'release date' set for the kickstarter, was the game going into early access on steam (please note that most, if not all other kickstarters utilize the delivery date as product finished and have their beta period scheduled within that time barring any delays).
Then we have the unending excuse that "The game is still in progress, we'll add those features later." combined with "But we're utilizing an iterative development procedure and sometimes you encounter that a thing you originally planned is no longer possible." (Explaining away why it is that some features like the familiars might not *ever* make it into the game, or atleast not in the way it was described during the kickstarter.
So feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here Matthew/George - but I do believe that 22cans is of the opinion that they HAVE fullfilled their side of the bargain from the kickstarter to the best of their abilities and are in the process of fullfilling when it comes to the features that still have to be added to the game.
Please note that I do not share this belief or have any notable opinion to add to this at this point in time. I'm merely sharing my observation on the matter.
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