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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 14, 2014 20:08:05 GMT
I really wanted to directly respond to this in the thread it was written but that last line put paid to that plan. So, I'm bringing it over here where I can't be banned for trying to explain what I'm talking about. It's ironic that I'm given an official warning for pointing out that 22Cans could get its information directly from us rather than go through a process of setting up a tool and using analytics to figure out what we want.
First off, it sounds like 22Cans can't be bothered to fix their own product. The community has to figure out how to make this game work on pc for them?! It doesn't have to be an us or them situation. If you want our input about timers and belief generation, ask and we'll tell you. Then, implement our recommendations. Don't create a system of configurations, analytics, interpretations, and assumptions to decide how to change things.
Second, it furthers the distancing between the development team and the community since they're eliminating the need for more direct communication. Now, the team has less reason to talk to us since they can supposedly get what they want from statistics.
I didn't post specifics because I didn't have time. The list of predictions aren't examples of specifics, but what I see coming from monitoring config files) We've discussed specifics and they were ignored in the past. It's the direct reason PM pitched his hyper speed fit in the post-AMA video.
There is nothing inherently wrong with giving us the ability to mod Godus. There's nothing wrong with getting fan input. The problem is that relying on game hacks to direct development is avoiding the issue. It's just the wrong thing to do to get the public's input. Essentially, it makes posting any discussion about timers and belief generation pointless. They're only going to use config comparison to make their decisions. This is what we saw with sculpting and it screwed things up months back. We'll just get another PM quote telling us we're playing the game wrong.
If our recommendations on forums were taken seriously, making a Timer fixes thread would do as well, if not infinitely better than reading raw data and making assumptions. This game's development is full of assumptions and few of them have turned out for the better.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 14, 2014 20:18:39 GMT
You forgot to mention that this is probably the 6th thread asking us what we'd like to see in about as many months...
You'd imagine they figured it out by now?
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 14, 2014 20:46:52 GMT
I really don't understand why they don't just let people speak their minds? Call me crazy, but sticking your finger in a dyke won't hold back a dam.  |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 14, 2014 20:50:12 GMT
You forgot to mention that this is probably the 6th thread asking us what we'd like to see in about as many months... You'd imagine they figured it out by now? What's galling is that, rather than actually read what we're telling them, they are coming up with a tool to mechanically answer their questions. Chances are, they'll come back in 3 months and say the timers and belief generation are fine because most people don't tweak the configurations and use their analytics as proof. The worst part is that all of our timer and belief woes should have been identified by QA months ago. I don't think anyone's been testing with unhacked timers and belief generation since day 1. If the testers have been relying on hacked settings, they probably had no idea just how poor the settings have been. Strangely enough, a number of us have been speculating this very thing since at least March... |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 14, 2014 20:54:15 GMT
Agreed, not to mention, the timers are a symptom, not a cause.
The timers are only there because the 'game' lacks something proper to do, its put in there as a replacement for a proper game mechanic.
EVEN when tweaked, the underlying problem of having jackshit to do still remains.
Which indeed should have been (and probably was) identified by QA months ago.
However they refuse to recognize this and insist that waiting on timers is zen-like and delicious!
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Post by hardly on Aug 14, 2014 21:08:27 GMT
I completely agree with earl. We've given heaps of feedback. They shouldn't need a tool to interpret the feedback. What I would suggest is they have an honest stab at balancing it and talk to us about the results. The point should be open and frank communication and once we have a basis for that conversation I think it will be very productive. Personally I'd try belief at x3 but let's try some things and see where they get to.
I agree danjal the underlying issue is some game decisions that balancing won't address. Balancing is a good start but you have to eventually grapple with the fact that the fundamental activities and challenges are not right.
The other point id raise is that it's not about the community figuring out the right level for them otherwise well have to spell everything else. They need to appreciate the flaw in their own design. When need them to be able to find the answer not just to give it to them.
Finally WTF is he giving you are warning for? Did you say something inappropriate outside the copied piece? Forums are for debate and if 22cans can't deal with polite criticism then they should get off the forums.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 14, 2014 21:20:04 GMT
I completely agree with earl. We've given heaps of feedback. They shouldn't need a tool to interpret the feedback. What I would suggest is they have an honest stab at balancing it and talk to us about the results. The point should be open and frank communication and once we have a basis for that conversation I think it will be very productive. Personally I'd try belief at x3 but let's try some things and see where they get to. I agree danjal the underlying issue is some game decisions that balancing won't address. Balancing is a good start but you have to eventually grapple with the fact that the fundamental activities and challenges are not right. The other point id raise is that it's not about the community figuring out the right level for them otherwise well have to spell everything else. They need to appreciate the flaw in their own design. When need them to be able to find the answer not just to give it to them. Finally WTF is he giving you are warning for? Did you say something inappropriate outside the copied piece? Forums are for debate and if 22cans can't deal with polite criticism then they should get off the forums. This conversation came up in the PC Update coming THURSDAY thread. Note, he didn't call me out for the original post, just the one kicking off this thread. Note the number of pages and amount of other "off topic" posts before, between, and after mine that aren't exactly topical either. I just struck a nerve because I spotted the QA team's big plan to pawn off work they've been ignoring for months. Here's my initial post in the thread, for reference: |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 14, 2014 21:23:15 GMT
If I might add, in the current build - when taking advantage of the Pit of Doom, I've had no real 'problems' with belief.
The other issues with the game still remains but I've been able to jack up enough gems through sacrifices to get the belief to continue playing.
I suspect that with the addition of the statue, I won't even have to resort to that anymore.
Making belief effectively a non-issue.
The collection of ore and grain still remains ofcourse, and there's still nothing else to do but expand and expand...
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 14, 2014 21:25:23 GMT
I really wanted to directly respond to this in the thread it was written but that last line put paid to that plan. So, I'm bringing it over here where I can't be banned for trying to explain what I'm talking about. It's ironic that I'm given an official warning for pointing out that 22Cans could get its information directly from us rather than go through a process of setting up a tool and using analytics to figure out what we want. First off, it sounds like 22Cans can't be bothered to fix their own product. The community has to figure out how to make this game work on pc for them?! It doesn't have to be an us or them situation. If you want our input about timers and belief generation, ask and we'll tell you. Then, implement our recommendations. Don't create a system of configurations, analytics, interpretations, and assumptions to decide how to change things. Second, it furthers the distancing between the development team and the community since they're eliminating the need for more direct communication. Now, the team has less reason to talk to us since they can supposedly get what they want from statistics. I didn't post specifics because I didn't have time. The list of predictions aren't examples of specifics, but what I see coming from monitoring config files) We've discussed specifics and they were ignored in the past. It's the direct reason PM pitched his hyper speed fit in the post-AMA video. There is nothing inherently wrong with giving us the ability to mod Godus. There's nothing wrong with getting fan input. The problem is that relying on game hacks to direct development is avoiding the issue. It's just the wrong thing to do to get the public's input. Essentially, it makes posting any discussion about timers and belief generation pointless. They're only going to use config comparison to make their decisions. This is what we saw with sculpting and it screwed things up months back. We'll just get another PM quote telling us we're playing the game wrong. If our recommendations on forums were taken seriously, making a Timer fixes thread would do as well, if not infinitely better than reading raw data and making assumptions. This game's development is full of assumptions and few of them have turned out for the better. You have to keep in mind that right now they are still focused on the mobile version. They just released it to a large public a week ago and have to pay a lot of attention to that right now. A very large part of the mobile audience is not going to come to forums to post their opinions. They like playing around with their mobile device from time to time, that's it. If they can get feedback from some of those players by means of this config file then that would probably help them. I don't think it'll be of much relevance to PC players. At least I sure hope not. When they start on the PC sprint we may (and hopefully will) have completely different settings and means of communications with the developers. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 14, 2014 21:36:43 GMT
I really wanted to directly respond to this in the thread it was written but that last line put paid to that plan. So, I'm bringing it over here where I can't be banned for trying to explain what I'm talking about. It's ironic that I'm given an official warning for pointing out that 22Cans could get its information directly from us rather than go through a process of setting up a tool and using analytics to figure out what we want. First off, it sounds like 22Cans can't be bothered to fix their own product. The community has to figure out how to make this game work on pc for them?! It doesn't have to be an us or them situation. If you want our input about timers and belief generation, ask and we'll tell you. Then, implement our recommendations. Don't create a system of configurations, analytics, interpretations, and assumptions to decide how to change things. Second, it furthers the distancing between the development team and the community since they're eliminating the need for more direct communication. Now, the team has less reason to talk to us since they can supposedly get what they want from statistics. I didn't post specifics because I didn't have time. The list of predictions aren't examples of specifics, but what I see coming from monitoring config files) We've discussed specifics and they were ignored in the past. It's the direct reason PM pitched his hyper speed fit in the post-AMA video. There is nothing inherently wrong with giving us the ability to mod Godus. There's nothing wrong with getting fan input. The problem is that relying on game hacks to direct development is avoiding the issue. It's just the wrong thing to do to get the public's input. Essentially, it makes posting any discussion about timers and belief generation pointless. They're only going to use config comparison to make their decisions. This is what we saw with sculpting and it screwed things up months back. We'll just get another PM quote telling us we're playing the game wrong. If our recommendations on forums were taken seriously, making a Timer fixes thread would do as well, if not infinitely better than reading raw data and making assumptions. This game's development is full of assumptions and few of them have turned out for the better. You have to keep in mind that right now they are still focused on the mobile version. They just released it to a large public a week ago and have to pay a lot of attention to that right now. A very large part of the mobile audience is not going to come to forums to post their opinions. They like playing around with their mobile device from time to time, that's it. If they can get feedback from some of those players by means of this config file then that would probably help them. I don't think it'll be of much relevance to PC players. At least I sure hope not. When they start on the PC sprint we may (and hopefully will) have completely different settings and means of communications with the developers. The issue is that I'm not talking about mobile at all. They announced a tool that lets us completely reconfigure the game and said they're going to use how we use it to adjust settings to what we want. The tool isn't for mobile devices so it doesn't apply to them. I don't see how their mobile focus has anything to do with that. I DO see how they could use this plan to avoid actually looking at fixing timers and belief generation once the pc focus hits. They'll just pull analytics and set defaults to the most common settings and pat themselves on the backs and claim to have listened to us, regardless of what those settings actually accomplish. It has the same game-hosing potential as the sculpting changes that came from analytics back in May. They're just giving us the tool to dig our own holes... |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 14, 2014 21:40:42 GMT
And if things go wrong they can just say "But its the settings YOU collectively chose, its not our fault!"
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Post by rubgish on Aug 14, 2014 21:44:30 GMT
I really wanted to directly respond to this in the thread it was written but that last line put paid to that plan. So, I'm bringing it over here where I can't be banned for trying to explain what I'm talking about. It's ironic that I'm given an official warning for pointing out that 22Cans could get its information directly from us rather than go through a process of setting up a tool and using analytics to figure out what we want. First off, it sounds like 22Cans can't be bothered to fix their own product. The community has to figure out how to make this game work on pc for them?! It doesn't have to be an us or them situation. If you want our input about timers and belief generation, ask and we'll tell you. Then, implement our recommendations. Don't create a system of configurations, analytics, interpretations, and assumptions to decide how to change things. Second, it furthers the distancing between the development team and the community since they're eliminating the need for more direct communication. Now, the team has less reason to talk to us since they can supposedly get what they want from statistics. I didn't post specifics because I didn't have time. The list of predictions aren't examples of specifics, but what I see coming from monitoring config files) We've discussed specifics and they were ignored in the past. It's the direct reason PM pitched his hyper speed fit in the post-AMA video. There is nothing inherently wrong with giving us the ability to mod Godus. There's nothing wrong with getting fan input. The problem is that relying on game hacks to direct development is avoiding the issue. It's just the wrong thing to do to get the public's input. Essentially, it makes posting any discussion about timers and belief generation pointless. They're only going to use config comparison to make their decisions. This is what we saw with sculpting and it screwed things up months back. We'll just get another PM quote telling us we're playing the game wrong. If our recommendations on forums were taken seriously, making a Timer fixes thread would do as well, if not infinitely better than reading raw data and making assumptions. This game's development is full of assumptions and few of them have turned out for the better. You have to keep in mind that right now they are still focused on the mobile version. They just released it to a large public a week ago and have to pay a lot of attention to that right now. A very large part of the mobile audience is not going to come to forums to post their opinions. They like playing around with their mobile device from time to time, that's it. If they can get feedback from some of those players by means of this config file then that would probably help them. I don't think it'll be of much relevance to PC players. At least I sure hope not. When they start on the PC sprint we may (and hopefully will) have completely different settings and means of communications with the developers. Er, if you think this update will go out to the mobile gamers, you're very much misguided. Probably the most frequently requested changes we make to the game by the Steam Early Access community and our Kickstarter backers is that we reduce the wait timers for Godus on PC and Mac. In the near future, we will be providing you with the ability to manually set many of the values within the balance files for yourself. We will then collate your feedback with the intention of making global adjustments to Godus on PC and Mac based on your collective contributions. Emphasis mine, but this is 100% only a PC & Mac only thing. Mobile gamers won't want to tinker with settings, especially as they have a fully released game, not one that is in development (mobile godus is a full release, not an early access in the same way the PC game is). |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 14, 2014 21:49:36 GMT
And if things go wrong they can just say "But its the settings YOU collectively chose, its not our fault!" The worst part is that I offered to create a thread and post exactly what they are asking for. As a community, we can come up with EXACT numbers if they would actually use them. Heck, it's the sort of thing we used to discuss. Remember March, when Lets Break Godus was the sort of conversation we were having, where people posted stacks of numbers and debated mechanics? We expected a response and reflection of our input about these things and quit bothering when it didn't come. This plan isn't asking for information, it's taking information; as if they aren't sure they want it in the first place... |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 14, 2014 21:49:59 GMT
My bad. I just got back in and am trying to catch up with what's been going on while away. Didn't take the time to fully read everything.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 14, 2014 21:51:44 GMT
I really wanted to directly respond to this in the thread it was written but that last line put paid to that plan. So, I'm bringing it over here where I can't be banned for trying to explain what I'm talking about. It's ironic that I'm given an official warning for pointing out that 22Cans could get its information directly from us rather than go through a process of setting up a tool and using analytics to figure out what we want. First off, it sounds like 22Cans can't be bothered to fix their own product. The community has to figure out how to make this game work on pc for them?! It doesn't have to be an us or them situation. If you want our input about timers and belief generation, ask and we'll tell you. Then, implement our recommendations. Don't create a system of configurations, analytics, interpretations, and assumptions to decide how to change things. Second, it furthers the distancing between the development team and the community since they're eliminating the need for more direct communication. Now, the team has less reason to talk to us since they can supposedly get what they want from statistics. I didn't post specifics because I didn't have time. The list of predictions aren't examples of specifics, but what I see coming from monitoring config files) We've discussed specifics and they were ignored in the past. It's the direct reason PM pitched his hyper speed fit in the post-AMA video. There is nothing inherently wrong with giving us the ability to mod Godus. There's nothing wrong with getting fan input. The problem is that relying on game hacks to direct development is avoiding the issue. It's just the wrong thing to do to get the public's input. Essentially, it makes posting any discussion about timers and belief generation pointless. They're only going to use config comparison to make their decisions. This is what we saw with sculpting and it screwed things up months back. We'll just get another PM quote telling us we're playing the game wrong. If our recommendations on forums were taken seriously, making a Timer fixes thread would do as well, if not infinitely better than reading raw data and making assumptions. This game's development is full of assumptions and few of them have turned out for the better. You have to keep in mind that right now they are still focused on the mobile version. They just released it to a large public a week ago and have to pay a lot of attention to that right now. A very large part of the mobile audience is not going to come to forums to post their opinions. They like playing around with their mobile device from time to time, that's it. If they can get feedback from some of those players by means of this config file then that would probably help them. I don't think it'll be of much relevance to PC players. At least I sure hope not. When they start on the PC sprint we may (and hopefully will) have completely different settings and means of communications with the developers. Um, I'm pretty positive mobile users aren't getting this Ba'al. This is directly intended as a means to appease Early Access users' desire for more direct involvement, they've said as much numerous times throughout the relevant threads. Regarding why this instead of design plans, this is what George told me. This isn't to suggest that they're unable to bring our ideas to the designers/development team, but it does very much suggest a higher level of difficulty in retrieving design details from them, despite this being what we could really use access to as has been said countless times. I don't want to call out George for having difficulty here, mind you, that's not on him so much as the design/dev team's decision making his job harder than it needs to be by endlessly frustrating us and in turn complaining to him. Edit: Whoops, took too much time on this post and missed others correcting you Ba'al, sorry to add to that. |
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Post by hardly on Aug 14, 2014 22:26:33 GMT
Looks like George is on holiday which might explains few things.
22cans please use conversations to engage not analytics. Yes analytics can help but I'd prefer we discuss those results before we proceed. Thank you.
Also I think you have to change the in game values to experiment not have players randomly doing it for you.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Aug 14, 2014 22:32:58 GMT
Like every other occasion where we've been asked for feedback, I suspect this will result in 22Cans doing whatever management were intending to do all along and then trying to claim that it was what the users had asked for. As everyone else has said, I'm frustrated that they keep doing things like this when it really couldn't be made any more explicitly clear what PC gamers want. Next they'll be asking us to go to the studio and program the game ourselves.
Having said all this, I still like this as a quick fix for the present condition of Godus. I'm unlikely to have an opportunity to play around with this until next week, but it appears that I'll now be able to set all the timers to zero? If so, this is exactly what I will do. Are we seriously expected to ask ourselves "how much more fun would it be to wait x minutes for no reason instead of having this instantly?"
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Post by hardly on Aug 14, 2014 22:40:02 GMT
A basic timer would be ok. As George has said most games have a delay before things happen but generally it's not frustration inducing like in GODUS. For me I'll be setting things so I can play the game without turning it off. I agree its nice to give us control but let's keep talking while we experiment and let's not threaten and bully people who provide feedback.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 14, 2014 22:57:52 GMT
I wonder what would happen if you gave the timers negative values.  |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 14, 2014 23:02:04 GMT
Like every other occasion where we've been asked for feedback, I suspect this will result in 22Cans doing whatever management were intending to do all along and then trying to claim that it was what the users had asked for. As everyone else has said, I'm frustrated that they keep doing things like this when it really couldn't be made any more explicitly clear what PC gamers want. Next they'll be asking us to go to the studio and program the game ourselves. Having said all this, I still like this as a quick fix for the present condition of Godus. I'm unlikely to have an opportunity to play around with this until next week, but it appears that I'll now be able to set all the timers to zero? If so, this is exactly what I will do. Are we seriously expected to ask ourselves "how much more fun would it be to wait x minutes for no reason instead of having this instantly?" They're now in the middle of a bad decision catch 22. If implementing the tool is a quick job, then there's no reason why they haven't just tweaked the numbers over the last several months like we've asked them to. If it's complicated, then they're putting a ton of effort into something that's going to be ripped back out when it gets full release. Either way, this plan will be problematic in the long run. I really wish they'd act on things the community says rather than cast around for alternatives that allow them to avoid us. If they aren't adjusting timers because they need explicit numbers, then ask and we'll do the math and get some to them. There are some intensely brilliant people in the forums that have done some seriously deep work before and can do so again, if they believe it will make a difference. We aren't negative because we want to see this game fail. We're negative because the bridge is out, the train's heading right for it, and nobody is listening to our warnings. "It's not good that the train sped up. The bridge is still out. No, I don't care that we've been upgraded to first class, we're going to plummet to our doom..." |
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