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Post by Danjal on Aug 15, 2014 14:02:00 GMT
I'm honestly baffled. I'm all about modding. This is a first step in that direction for us. We know that it's going to be impossible for us to make a balance that everyone likes. You guys talk like you all have a unified design ethos but it probably only matches up when it comes to very high level things like "less times". What should the times be? How fast should people spawn? Exactly? Those are trickier things to consider. A game is a huge complicated thing and changing one thing has in impact on about ten other things. Every change has the potential to rip even a happy community in two. The best thing to do here is really to put the power directly into your hands so each group can have their own way. From my perspective (and it is just mine, I should stress) it seems like a bunch of people screaming "We want to have things changed to be like what we want" and now screaming "No, no, we wanted to watch YOU change things to how we like!". I don't really understand that point of view.  The problem is that to find the right balance of something - you really need to know more about what is coming to the game. Right now, with nothing else to do. You'll want certain timers to be a LOT lower than they are right now - unless ofcourse you want to spend your time sacrificing people continuously to cut down on those timers. Now that second option is functional - but I do not believe it is intended... So, what is the alterative? In my opinion waiting on certain timers (not the hours long ones...) isn't too bad if you have something to do while that is being finished. Example: Look at the wonders in Age of Empires or Black and White - those take a very long time to create. Now those work with a progression bar and you see it 'progress', you see materials being brought to it and you can watch your people work on creating it. On the other hand, a expansion beacon that takes 24 hours to complete... All you do is sit and wait, doing nothing because there is nothing to do but collect belief, sculpt the land, build more houses. So if I had something interesting to do, a longish timer wouldn't be too bad (24 hours is still too much) - but if I have nothing to do, I don't want to sit there and wait. Which leads to the following conclusion - Godus is made for a mobile crowd that will play 15 minutes to set things up and collect their things - and then leaves their device again having the game run in the background. You don't need anything to do because most players don't have TIME to do anything in those 15 minute sessions.... The PC is different - and we've been promised for over a year now that we'll get more interesting things to do - but we've never actually been told what you are planning. And now you want us to balance your game for you? When you've not really done anything for us to make the game more enjoyable. What do we have to work with? What are decisions going to be based on? I hope you see my problem??? And even if you discount the fact that we do not know what is to come and therefor will have balance changes that are based on incomplete data without proper context. You will be getting a TON of balance changes done by people that just set things to low because they do not care about a balanced game. Now if we had a clue of what to keep in mind when setting up these balance changes it'd be a completely different story. If you had done this a year ago before things went all to hell, it'd have been a different story. But no, you wait untill you've got half a game up and running and then you go "sorry, we can't fix it for you, you do it for us please..." |
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Aug 15, 2014 16:02:45 GMT
I think, in the end, a fair percentage of the early buyers/backers have the main complaint that some fundamentals about this game, specifically stickers in chests as well as gems, are anti-thema and just fundamentally 'off'. The timers are off, sure, but just addressing the balance of those timers can be seen as glossing over those fundamental issues.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 15, 2014 16:47:39 GMT
What it comes down to is, your patient is suffering from a terminal disease, he also has a cough and some broken limbs.
What you guys are doing is ignoring the disease and the broken limbs and focusing on the cough...
The cough likely is a symptom of the terminal disease - but you don't care, you want to cure the cough! Lets ignore the rest.
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
Posts: 73 
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Post by feanix on Aug 15, 2014 22:25:58 GMT
I'm pretty damned sure that 95% of the mobile players don't even know the PC game exists. Their entire knowledge of Godus comes from the app store, the ratings there and their own experiences and perhaps twitter. They couldn't care less about the PC version and how it might be different. Especially with a $20 price tag.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 15, 2014 22:30:47 GMT
I'm pretty damned sure that 95% of the mobile players don't even know the PC game exists. Their entire knowledge of Godus comes from the app store, the ratings there and their own experiences and perhaps twitter. They couldn't care less about the PC version and how it might be different. Especially with a $20 price tag. Right... And the developer doesn't seem to realize that this is a problem? That the two main target audiences aren't at all interested in what comes down to 50% of the game. Instead of listening to those audiences - the developer insists that the audience is wrong and should just play the game the developer intends it to be played and enjoy it. ESPECIALLY when you're selling a mobile game under a $20 price tag. |
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Post by hardly on Aug 15, 2014 22:52:57 GMT
Danjal don't be too bitter bro. I know theres a lot of bad history but the best chance we have of fixing this mess is for Feanix and Fabs to continue to participate on this forum. If we give them shit every time they say something they'll just give up and go back into the 22Cans bunker. Lets forgive but not forget.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 15, 2014 22:57:49 GMT
Danjal don't be too bitter bro. I know theres a lot of bad history but the best chance we have of fixing this mess is for Feanix and Fabs to continue to participate on this forum. If we give them shit every time they say something they'll just give up and go back into the 22Cans bunker. Lets forgive but not forget. I'm merely saying - if you are apparently aware of the problem. Then why the hell aren't you working on fixing it? |
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Post by hardly on Aug 15, 2014 23:08:22 GMT
Danjal don't be too bitter bro. I know theres a lot of bad history but the best chance we have of fixing this mess is for Feanix and Fabs to continue to participate on this forum. If we give them shit every time they say something they'll just give up and go back into the 22Cans bunker. Lets forgive but not forget. I'm merely saying - if you are apparently aware of the problem. Then why the hell aren't you working on fixing it? No doubt. I have this suspicion that if we get enough of these 22Cans guys engaged on discussions on these forums we'll get some new advocates back at the office. There are only 22 of them after all so we just need to convert a few and we'll have a beachhead at the office.
I get the sense that these guys are very similar in gaming interests to us so if we are open and friendly it shouldn't be too hard to start a fruitful dialogue about what constitutes a fun game. Look how active they've been since the mobile launch. Lets keep it going.
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
Posts: 73
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Post by feanix on Aug 16, 2014 9:34:24 GMT
I'm pretty damned sure that 95% of the mobile players don't even know the PC game exists. Their entire knowledge of Godus comes from the app store, the ratings there and their own experiences and perhaps twitter. They couldn't care less about the PC version and how it might be different. Especially with a $20 price tag. Right... And the developer doesn't seem to realize that this is a problem? That the two main target audiences aren't at all interested in what comes down to 50% of the game. Instead of listening to those audiences - the developer insists that the audience is wrong and should just play the game the developer intends it to be played and enjoy it. ESPECIALLY when you're selling a mobile game under a $20 price tag. The reason I mentioned it was to point out that we don't feel that we can't make changes to the PC version for fear of angering our mobile users. No comment on the rest, I'm afraid. |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 16, 2014 10:41:53 GMT
Feanix have you liked any of our more constructive suggestions personally? If so do you feel comfortable telling us which ones? How did you feel about some of the ideas to make the followers more like people? I would love to hear your opinion.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 16, 2014 15:15:19 GMT
The reason I mentioned it was to point out that we don't feel that we can't make changes to the PC version for fear of angering our mobile users. No comment on the rest, I'm afraid. Allow me to point out a flaw in the logic above: Lets ask people to PAY us to fund our game. Lets subsequently sell this game in a very early alpha stage through Steam Early Access... (Its not like this will anger the backers right?) Lets then IGNORE these paying customers and focus on an as of yet non-existent mobile market. (I'm sure the backers and SEA buyers will not get angered by this) Lets go into some contracts with a known mobile company that focuses heavily on extensive monetization. (Surely this will not anger our existing customers, we'll just not tell them about it...) Lets subsequently ignore the PC and focus on mobile, because we don't want to anger our mobile third party partner. (Surely this will not anger our PC customers at all....) Lets release a mobile version and ignore the PC version some more, we can't go and ANGER our mobile users. I don't think that 22cans at any point in time was worried about angering anyone, so why would the be so now? If you're worried about angering anyone, wouldn't you be worried about angering your existing customers rather than your hypothetical mobile customers that weren't even aware that you existed untill you released? Unless ofcourse the logic has been that said paying customers already paid, and therefor do not represent further income. Making them useless to further the cause of the company. Instead focusing on mobile users that represent a constant flow of incoming money. But Peter already said he didn't like that abusive side of the F2P model, so that can't be it right - I mean, you wouldn't want to anger your ENTIRE customerbase? I would love to hear some clear answers to this from the 22cans "leaders". Some simple honest truth. Shouldn't be too hard right. Afterall, haven't we been told that 'now that the mobile hurdle is out of the way you can focus on the interesting stuff again'. (hint - bring this up to Peter and his cohorts next time you see them) |
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Post by banned on Aug 17, 2014 15:24:33 GMT
The reason I mentioned it was to point out that we don't feel that we can't make changes to the PC version for fear of angering our mobile users. No comment on the rest, I'm afraid. Allow me to point out a flaw in the logic above: Lets ask people to PAY us to fund our game. Lets subsequently sell this game in a very early alpha stage through Steam Early Access... (Its not like this will anger the backers right?) Lets then IGNORE these paying customers and focus on an as of yet non-existent mobile market. (I'm sure the backers and SEA buyers will not get angered by this) Lets go into some contracts with a known mobile company that focuses heavily on extensive monetization. (Surely this will not anger our existing customers, we'll just not tell them about it...) Lets subsequently ignore the PC and focus on mobile, because we don't want to anger our mobile third party partner. (Surely this will not anger our PC customers at all....) Lets release a mobile version and ignore the PC version some more, we can't go and ANGER our mobile users. I don't think that 22cans at any point in time was worried about angering anyone, so why would the be so now? If you're worried about angering anyone, wouldn't you be worried about angering your existing customers rather than your hypothetical mobile customers that weren't even aware that you existed untill you released? Unless ofcourse the logic has been that said paying customers already paid, and therefor do not represent further income. Making them useless to further the cause of the company. Instead focusing on mobile users that represent a constant flow of incoming money. But Peter already said he didn't like that abusive side of the F2P model, so that can't be it right - I mean, you wouldn't want to anger your ENTIRE customerbase? I would love to hear some clear answers to this from the 22cans "leaders". Some simple honest truth. Shouldn't be too hard right. Afterall, haven't we been told that 'now that the mobile hurdle is out of the way you can focus on the interesting stuff again'. (hint - bring this up to Peter and his cohorts next time you see them) And, as always, Danjal speaks my exact thought with the courtesy I lack. Sadly, the outcome shall remain the same. And thusly I have little regret over my venting via diatribe. Once you realize that despite any effort at cooperation the other party is only interested in your acceptance of their plan in full, that the only actual negotiation allowed is over "window dressing", ya might as well "hurl excrement" like any good monkey. I don't understand how any at 22cans is surprised. |
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
Posts: 73
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Post by feanix on Aug 18, 2014 9:20:57 GMT
Well, as so oftens happens we've reached a point where it's no longer useful no appropriate for me to comment. Answers to this stuff needs to come for more senior people. Sorry! |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 18, 2014 11:00:44 GMT
No worries feanix - I'm sure you will be needed to clarify your personal area's of expertise sooner or later. Till then, I'm hoping to hear more clarity from George, Matthew or even better directly from Jack, Peter or someone else up on top of the pile of cans. |
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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 18, 2014 11:26:09 GMT
No worries feanix - I'm sure you will be needed to clarify your personal area's of expertise sooner or later. Till then, I'm hoping to hear more clarity from George, Matthew or even better directly from Jack, Peter or someone else up on top of the pile of cans. Promise me you won't hold your breath waiting as this is the same crap we have been discussing for over a year now and we haven't been graced with answers. Or maybe the answer is WYSIWYG, get over your disappointment as it isn't changing.
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Post by Danjal on Aug 18, 2014 11:38:26 GMT
Don't you worry, I'm not holding my breath. I'm too practical - I just want to see what I can drag out of this trainwreck untill it all goes to hell.
At the end of the day Peter had one thing right - we've already paid... Its not going to cost us anything more.
Spending some time ticking out messages to the cans doesn't "cost" me anything. =)
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jpw
Master
Posts: 159
Pledge level: Patron+Acorn+Poster
I like: Populus
What I thought Godus was going to be...
I don't like: Waiting
Collecting belief
Stickers
Sculpting
Voyages
Managing settlements
Not being a god in a god game
Chests
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Post by jpw on Aug 18, 2014 11:44:17 GMT
...Spending some time ticking out messages to the cans doesn't "cost" me anything. =) Apart from your sanity? |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 18, 2014 12:40:31 GMT
...Spending some time ticking out messages to the cans doesn't "cost" me anything. =) Apart from your sanity? Not really, if anything this whole endeavour has brought me hours of entertainment and plenty of good laughs. They key is not to take things too serious. Afterall, I've got nothing to lose (contrary to them). |
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zeruelb
Junior Apprentice
Posts: 63
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Post by zeruelb on Aug 19, 2014 5:12:17 GMT
We've been waiting for the pc focus because 22Cans claimed it was going to look into belief generation and timer length optimization as part of their optimization plan. Now, what we get is "do it yourself". I should also point out that this is not the entirety of the PC focus. That would be crazy. This is just a little extra we thought up. I've never seen a game give out cheat codes rather than fix faulty mechanics. They're more modding tools thab cheat codes, in my opinion. Of course, you've always been able to use modding/developer tools to cheat in games in the past so I suppose you could use them for that, if you like. It could be a first step to introduce a config file so the user CAN actually TEST what THEIR timer ideas would be. Shouldn't take more than 15 Minutes to implement such a thing, be it just a plain value to multiply the timer value with... (i.e. 0.5 = half timers, 0.25 = 1/4 timers etc. and maybe a "Max Timer: 5 Minutes" or sth like that). Should fit perfectly into the Settings tab and im somewhat sure that someone already suggested something like this a year ago. |
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Post by Danjal on Aug 19, 2014 10:01:18 GMT
I should also point out that this is not the entirety of the PC focus. That would be crazy. This is just a little extra we thought up. They're more modding tools thab cheat codes, in my opinion. Of course, you've always been able to use modding/developer tools to cheat in games in the past so I suppose you could use them for that, if you like. It could be a first step to introduce a config file so the user CAN actually TEST what THEIR timer ideas would be. Shouldn't take more than 15 Minutes to implement such a thing, be it just a plain value to multiply the timer value with... (i.e. 0.5 = half timers, 0.25 = 1/4 timers etc. and maybe a "Max Timer: 5 Minutes" or sth like that). Should fit perfectly into the Settings tab and im somewhat sure that someone already suggested something like this a year ago. A game releasing with cheats or modding tools isn't unheard of, so I don't think thats inherently a problem. What is the problem is that (after this long in development) Godus has little meat on its bones. I highly doubt most of the players are up to proper deep-end testing, so a lot of players will now find out how little content there actually is in the game (where previously they gave up because of the timers). A rather disconcerting idea, showing 90% of your players that after well over 1½ years of development, your game has so little content to show for itself. Its a box of component pieces that poorly fit together and are made of the mismatched components of different platforms. Kinda reminds me of one of those scrapheap challenges where they take parts from mismatching vehicles to form a beast of destruction or whatnot. |
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