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Post by muumipeikko on Aug 14, 2014 23:28:10 GMT
Guys, 22Can's is going to keep asking us "what we want" until we get the answer correct. It's been like this from the beginning. Lets cut out the BS and save a lot of time, George what does Peter think we want?
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Post by banned on Aug 15, 2014 2:13:46 GMT
I really don't understand why they don't just let people speak their minds? Call me crazy, but sticking your finger in a dyke won't hold back a dam.  If you move the fingers deftly, the dyke says, "Daaaammmnnnnnnnnnnn!" But that is a different story. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 15, 2014 3:46:07 GMT
I figured out where they got their idea for this technique:  |
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Post by hardly on Aug 15, 2014 7:09:00 GMT
So I read a little bit of the steam thread that gave rise to this thread and I want to expand on my earlier posts.
I can see how 22Cans are a bit pissed off with the response. Basically they are responding to our issues in a reasonable way and they probably didn't anticipate or deserve the response they got solely based on that post.
However, when you've been giving feedback on the balancing of the game for a year it is understandable that you are a bit pissed off when the people who are responsible for that just wash their hands of it and absolve themselves of responsibility for that (at least temporarily). From a consumer point of view it feels like 22Cans spent a year balancing the game for mobile, no time balancing it for PC (even though adjusting the balancing is clearly quite easy to do), and now is farming this out to the community. This disrespects one year of feedback and essentially means there is a cleanslate on the discussion which is offensive to those who invested time and energy in making suggestions and comments.
I think this is a case of a nice gesture from 22Cans that unfortunately completely ignores the history of the relationship. So to move forward I suggest we the consumers give 22Cans some kudos for acting on our concerns in this way and empowering us to experiment in the game and that 22Cans acknowledge that there is a history here that cant be ignored and that PC balance should have had greater consideration over the last 12 months.
On that note I hope we can all be friends.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 7:51:33 GMT
My Problem with godus isn't the balancing of timers, my problem is that the game mechanics are bullshit. What the f.... should i balance the timeres for them if the whole concept behind them is not worth playing the game. Yes sure, i can try to set the timers much less annoying, but it won't change the game. Why should it be a nice gesture? They know we hate the game mechanics, they want to keep it, so let the community set the timers in a way the largest pecentage of users accepts it. It's like you have a group of people and all of them are sitting in a cold, dark room and get electric shocks, now, instead of stopping the shocks and bringing them into a beautiful house you let them sit in this dark room but they are allowed to change the intensity of the electric shock. So in the end we will have shocks so the most of us can live with it but we will always sit in this dark, cold room full of stickers and stupid game mechanics.
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
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Post by feanix on Aug 15, 2014 9:27:33 GMT
I'm honestly baffled. I'm all about modding. This is a first step in that direction for us. We know that it's going to be impossible for us to make a balance that everyone likes. You guys talk like you all have a unified design ethos but it probably only matches up when it comes to very high level things like "less times". What should the times be? How fast should people spawn? Exactly? Those are trickier things to consider. A game is a huge complicated thing and changing one thing has in impact on about ten other things. Every change has the potential to rip even a happy community in two. The best thing to do here is really to put the power directly into your hands so each group can have their own way. From my perspective (and it is just mine, I should stress) it seems like a bunch of people screaming "We want to have things changed to be like what we want" and now screaming "No, no, we wanted to watch YOU change things to how we like!". I don't really understand that point of view.  |
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 15, 2014 9:32:43 GMT
The timers for me should be more linked to the common sense level of being able to sit down and play the game for 16 hours in a row, 3 days a week if you want to. or not, that should be up to me the player, I want to play the way I feel like at any given time. There should never be a main game play timer longer than 15 minutes.
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Post by hardly on Aug 15, 2014 9:35:56 GMT
Just as means of explanation Feanix I think if say 9 months ago 22Cans had introduced customisation people would have had an overwhelmingly positive response. Imagine your mum was picking you up from school and after waiting three hours she called you up and said just walk home. Now you might not mind walking home but would you be thankful your mum called you or would you be pissed that you'd been waiting three hours? We are the kid thinking why did I have to wait three hours to find out I needed to walk myself home. On a side note guess which kid got forgotten a couple of times  We should be glad you are giving us more control and I for one am glad you are and I thank you for it but I still want to know that 22Cans understand what was wrong with the approach of having long timers. Why intentional frustration mechanics must be removed from the game. Otherwise later in the development the same mistakes will be repeated. |
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Post by Crumpy Six on Aug 15, 2014 10:00:38 GMT
The best thing to do here is really to put the power directly into your hands so each group can have their own way. From my perspective (and it is just mine, I should stress) it seems like a bunch of people screaming "We want to have things changed to be like what we want" and now screaming "No, no, we wanted to watch YOU change things to how we like!". I don't really understand that point of view. Haven't we just "screamed" the same thing twice right there? We want the game changed to reflect user feedback (which is, after all, the primary reason to get involved in an Early Access game rather than waiting for the final release). We actually put up money for this. You guys got our cash and Godus wasn't even halfway done. But 22Cans keep insisting that whatever we say is not clear enough and falling back on their old analytics approach, which they've proven themselves utterly incapable of interpreting. I guess this new system at least invites users to provide a commentary on why they chose to customise the game in the way that they did. Sorry to be blunt but you guys are fucking awful at handling user feedback. You have been given a constant, endless stream of feedback right from the first alpha release. You've had analytics. You've made forum threads inviting very specific feedback on certain areas (for example, there was an absolutely EPIC thread on Steam about how users wanted trees to operate in Godus). There was the "top 3 things" thread. Allegedly the community team prepare detailed reports of what the community has been asking for and these reports end up.. in a big box labelled "to look at during the PC sprint"? Has anyone opened that box yet? The customisation thing is sort of cool, but we have no reason to believe the output will not be sucked into the same void. Also, I paid YOU to make this damn game, I don't want to have to figure out every little detail myself. |
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Post by hardly on Aug 15, 2014 10:11:18 GMT
That's what happens when you poke the bear Be nice crumpy he has a point as do you. I like this game a lot more with the temple of doom but its a lot of work laundering all that belief. I'm looking forward to the ability to just turn up the rate it generates at. |
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Post by dozvati on Aug 15, 2014 10:27:55 GMT
From what I understand, the timers are only indicative of the larger issue, which is not enough actual gameplay to sustain a player. Slowing down timers is all well and good, but that leaves us with not much else. I imagine people are asking for more depth, more so than they are worried about the timers. I think 22Cans' best bet to instill good will is to announce upcoming gameplay features - not extra gifts or abodes but other ways to interact with our civilization. A good perusal through the Feature Suggestion Thread yields mostly stylistic suggestions, but there's some actual gameplay-relevant ones in there too. Understandably, we're only in pre-access, and the game isn't actually done yet, and I also understand specifically Peter's reluctance to over-promise on features, but I think most players keeping up to date with this stuff would love at least a more tangible roadmap. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 10:38:20 GMT
I'm honestly baffled. I'm all about modding. This is a first step in that direction for us. We know that it's going to be impossible for us to make a balance that everyone likes. You guys talk like you all have a unified design ethos but it probably only matches up when it comes to very high level things like "less times". What should the times be? How fast should people spawn? Exactly? Those are trickier things to consider. A game is a huge complicated thing and changing one thing has in impact on about ten other things. Every change has the potential to rip even a happy community in two. The best thing to do here is really to put the power directly into your hands so each group can have their own way. From my perspective (and it is just mine, I should stress) it seems like a bunch of people screaming "We want to have things changed to be like what we want" and now screaming "No, no, we wanted to watch YOU change things to how we like!". I don't really understand that point of view. Why should i fix the belief timer if i hate the whole belief gathering concept? What's the Point? Why should i fix the timer of those expansion shrines if they are completly stupid? ...
All those timers we should balance now are annoying, but they are annoying because the underlying game mechanic (which makes them necessary) is annoying. I said since Alpha:"Godus plays like a f2P game, change this." But 22cans doesn't listen, they fiddle with the timers since beginning. We had endless discussions about timers in every of the three forums and i thought it was clear that not the timer is the problem but the game mechanic which it's used for. The timers don't change the f2p style gameplay, they make it faster or slower. Maybe more or less annoying, but they don't fix the problem. Especially 22cans community staff brought up a lot of examples of timers that work for other games and i thought we made clear, that not the timer itself is the problem.
Look at belief: You can set the belief timer to what ever time you want it's annoying to gather belief with clicking on every house (like it was in the beginning). The lenght of the timer doesn't change that, you have to click the stupid house. I don't know what's the actual Status of belief gathering is, because i haven't played the game since one year (don't like wasting my time) but that's what it was.
Look at expansion shrines: You can set the timer to what ever time you want it's annoying to be restricted by a stupid shrine (as a god). I have never found an expansion shrine on earth, but maybe that's because god did that some thousand years ago. Mechanic: restricting and stupid (my opinion). Expansion should be limited (if necessary) by natural more logical reasons.
And there is another point. How should it work? We do not know anything about the planned design of the game. Is the homeworld feature complete? What is planned? How should i balance a timer for housebuilding if i don't know how big the world will be?
I feel like sitting in a room which is filling with water, i can't stand anymore and am calling for help. "Please open the door so the water can flow out of the room, i can not swim any longer". Voice from other side of the wall "Hey we have heard you and because we are so nice people and listen to you and it seems like you don't like how the flow of water is right now we have decided to let you control the temperature of the water. Have fun."
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 15, 2014 12:09:55 GMT
I'm honestly baffled. I'm all about modding. This is a first step in that direction for us. We know that it's going to be impossible for us to make a balance that everyone likes. You guys talk like you all have a unified design ethos but it probably only matches up when it comes to very high level things like "less times". What should the times be? How fast should people spawn? Exactly? Those are trickier things to consider. A game is a huge complicated thing and changing one thing has in impact on about ten other things. Every change has the potential to rip even a happy community in two. The best thing to do here is really to put the power directly into your hands so each group can have their own way. From my perspective (and it is just mine, I should stress) it seems like a bunch of people screaming "We want to have things changed to be like what we want" and now screaming "No, no, we wanted to watch YOU change things to how we like!". I don't really understand that point of view. The point is that 22Cans have once again misinterpreted the community feedback. There are people that take the time to think about improvements for the game and write huge posts about that. Then there are people who just come onto a forum to write one post saying "timers suck". It's like 22Cans are only seeing those short posts and not reading the longer ones. Then they count how many "timers suck" posts they see and conclude that backers think that timers suck so they come up with the idea for us to change the timers ourselves. Now I don't mind this at all, mind you, but I won't be using it myself. It really is beside the issue. The timers are a problem because the game mechanics suck. The solution is not to change the timers but to change the game mechanics. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Aug 15, 2014 13:20:05 GMT
We've been screaming that timers are way too long and that belief generation is way too slow for nearly a year. They are two of the 3 big complaints about the game since release. In that time, belief generation has slowed down and timers have gotten even longer. We've been waiting for the pc focus because 22Cans claimed it was going to look into belief generation and timer length optimization as part of their optimization plan. Now, what we get is "do it yourself". It wouldn't have been taken so negatively if 22Cans had actually attempted to adjust the settings like we'd asked and we complained, but they've done NOTHING about this issue since day 1.
I've never seen a game give out cheat codes rather than fix faulty mechanics. The ability to mod a game is one of the last things to be released. It really drives home that 22Cans doesn't have any idea just how this game is supposed to play on the pc. It's clear they've put a lot of thought into how they want the mobile experience handled, and it just doesn't fly as a desktop experience.
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
Posts: 73
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Post by feanix on Aug 15, 2014 13:21:13 GMT
Fair enough. Thanks for your interesting feedback, everyone. (You should in no way interpret that as 22Cans' response, it is purely my own)
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Post by Deth on Aug 15, 2014 13:25:14 GMT
Don't worry, I think most of us understand unless it comes from Mathew or George it is personal option and even with them it is easy to tell what is official and what is more their option. I want to thank you for taking time and coming here to talk with us.
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
Posts: 73
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Post by feanix on Aug 15, 2014 13:25:40 GMT
We've been waiting for the pc focus because 22Cans claimed it was going to look into belief generation and timer length optimization as part of their optimization plan. Now, what we get is "do it yourself". I should also point out that this is not the entirety of the PC focus. That would be crazy. This is just a little extra we thought up. I've never seen a game give out cheat codes rather than fix faulty mechanics. They're more modding tools thab cheat codes, in my opinion. Of course, you've always been able to use modding/developer tools to cheat in games in the past so I suppose you could use them for that, if you like. |
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feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
Posts: 73
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Post by feanix on Aug 15, 2014 13:26:09 GMT
Don't worry, I think most of us understand unless it comes from Mathew or George it is personal option and even with them it is easy to tell what is official and what is more their option. I want to thank you for taking time and coming here to talk with us. You're welcome! |
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Post by Deth on Aug 15, 2014 13:31:16 GMT
I've never seen a game give out cheat codes rather than fix faulty mechanics. They're more modding tools thab cheat codes, in my opinion. Of course, you've always been able to use modding/developer tools to cheat in games in the past so I suppose you could use them for that, if you like. I would agree that is is more of a mod tool. I have seen things like this before, but they normally part of a larger set of tools, like being able to change the art so you could say make new monsters. I think Neverwinter Nights had tools that let you change monster stats. I think part of the problem is the timing as others have said. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 13:51:06 GMT
I'm honestly baffled. I'm all about modding. This is a first step in that direction for us. We know that it's going to be impossible for us to make a balance that everyone likes. You guys talk like you all have a unified design ethos but it probably only matches up when it comes to very high level things like "less times". What should the times be? How fast should people spawn? Exactly? Those are trickier things to consider. A game is a huge complicated thing and changing one thing has in impact on about ten other things. Every change has the potential to rip even a happy community in two. The best thing to do here is really to put the power directly into your hands so each group can have their own way. From my perspective (and it is just mine, I should stress) it seems like a bunch of people screaming "We want to have things changed to be like what we want" and now screaming "No, no, we wanted to watch YOU change things to how we like!". I don't really understand that point of view. i didnt wanted that power i have to suffer cause of your (22cans) decision cause i will never use that and its clear why you (22cans) give this decsion to us cause you (22cans) fear to get fucked from the mobile Players if they get it that you (22cans) give us better timers bnut not the mobile Players this is nothing else then a half baked decision we wanted an modable game and we get some stupid Balance file all what i can say to this screw the Balance file screw 22 cans this was my last post after this i delete my account wish you all luck but i have enough about These Piece of trash companie |
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