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Post by Qetesh on Sept 17, 2014 6:42:49 GMT
I will start by saying "you" means 22cans and not you personally. George have you read the posts on the Alpha and Beta backers boards? The majority were quite pissed to find a game appearing mainly mobile with F2p mechanics. Also I will point out a fact you keep forgetting. We asked if this was going to be the case and was point blank LIED to about it. To be honest, i think back in KS days they did want to deliver what they promised. Then Peter woke up one day and thought "hmm, f2p it is now". So basically noone lied, they just got no fucking clue what they are doing in the first place. And they call it Iterative Design. Its like saying "I want to drive to NewYork", while you "iteratively" "plan" your route. Like, "this time im turning left. Now im Turning right. Ah, i just turn around and turn left again". You know your Goal but got no clue on how to achieve it. (and it just gets worse when you have to start your Drive from London.) I have a hard time agreeing because of the timing with DeNa. |
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Post by julians on Sept 17, 2014 11:54:54 GMT
Hey even I got into a screenshot. Interesting to note: we keep complaining about the same thing for a year now (they are delivering something that's not what they promised).
Aynen was as disillusioned back then as he is now.
And I also don't believe F2P was not planned from the start. It was announced way before alpha and caused much fuss in Backer forums. In a lot of those early/pre KS interviews Peter mentions how he is envious of all the Facebook games that are being called God Games, and how it sucks to make a game for a year and have it finished in a weekend. He wanted to grab a piece of F2P pie and make a 'live development' game. That's why you can basically only play Godus once and everything takes a week and a half. Too bad he didn't share that sentiment in KS. And if you're going to say the interviews were public and everyone had access to them before KS and could deduce that if Godus is going to be on mobile and Peter loves F2P then Godus will be F2P. Then F you.
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zeruelb
Junior Apprentice
Posts: 63 
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Post by zeruelb on Sept 17, 2014 11:55:21 GMT
DeNa was 2013, Kickstarter ran till end of 2012. Could be Peter banged his head on the 22nd of December 2012 and thought dena would be a great idea.
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Post by julians on Sept 17, 2014 12:20:06 GMT
DeNa would most likely not sign a contract without KS being successful. Starting with first Alpha f2p mechanics were there and no amount of backer cries changed that. Godus didn't change direction one bit, it started out as a f2p and damn you all it's going to end as f2p and better get used to it.
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Post by Danjal on Sept 17, 2014 12:37:04 GMT
DeNa would most likely not sign a contract without KS being successful. Starting with first Alpha f2p mechanics were there and no amount of backer cries changed that. Godus didn't change direction one bit, it started out as a f2p and damn you all it's going to end as f2p and better get used to it. The primary complaint I have on this, is that at every step of the way 22cans danced around this subject. Denying it at every turn. I agree, the F2P/freemium elements have always been there. And the direction has always seemed obvious from the outside. Yet 22cans always denied it. And that is what I have a problem with. This purposeful manipulation of information for the sake of monetary gain. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Sept 17, 2014 21:48:10 GMT
I will start by saying "you" means 22cans and not you personally. George have you read the posts on the Alpha and Beta backers boards? The majority were quite pissed to find a game appearing mainly mobile with F2p mechanics. Also I will point out a fact you keep forgetting. We asked if this was going to be the case and was point blank LIED to about it. To be honest, i think back in KS days they did want to deliver what they promised. Then Peter woke up one day and thought "hmm, f2p it is now". So basically noone lied, they just got no fucking clue what they are doing in the first place. And they call it Iterative Design. Its like saying "I want to drive to NewYork", while you "iteratively" "plan" your route. Like, "this time im turning left. Now im Turning right. Ah, i just turn around and turn left again". You know your Goal but got no clue on how to achieve it. (and it just gets worse when you have to start your Drive from London.) Part of me wonders if at some point they entered into agreements, including the ones with DeNA and Mobage, that are still holding them captive - and thus they feel like trapped animals, slowly going insane and chewing off their own paws trying to escape, turning feral and rabid. |
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Post by hardly on Sept 17, 2014 21:55:20 GMT
Nah, they just have no idea what they are doing and if they told the truth everyone would know they've spent two ears making a bad game and have no idea how to fix it. The whole "don't judge what's no finished" bullshit assumes there is a plan for making it better. There is no plan.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 17, 2014 21:58:27 GMT
Nah, they just spent two ears making a bad game. Aaaah, now it all makes sense! They spent their ears and now they can't hear us. Poor sods. |
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arryu
Senior Apprentice
Posts: 80
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Post by arryu on Sept 18, 2014 0:20:11 GMT
To be honest, i think back in KS days they did want to deliver what they promised. Then Peter woke up one day and thought "hmm, f2p it is now". So basically noone lied, they just got no fucking clue what they are doing in the first place. And they call it Iterative Design. Its like saying "I want to drive to NewYork", while you "iteratively" "plan" your route. Like, "this time im turning left. Now im Turning right. Ah, i just turn around and turn left again". You know your Goal but got no clue on how to achieve it. (and it just gets worse when you have to start your Drive from London.) Part of me wonders if at some point they entered into agreements, including the ones with DeNA and Mobage, that are still holding them captive - and thus they feel like trapped animals, slowly going insane and chewing off their own paws trying to escape, turning feral and rabid. Some kind of gaming Lord ofthe Flies? Belief is the conch and the pc crowd is the beast. We have the pit o doom acting as our pig's head, and of course hubworld is the signal fire. "sucks to your ass-mar, petey!" |
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Post by banned on Sept 19, 2014 1:57:13 GMT
You mean, lied. euphemisms be damned. |
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Post by Danjal on Sept 19, 2014 9:22:35 GMT
You mean, lied. euphemisms be damned. If I meant lied, I would've said lied. And even if you include lying - its still dancing around and manipulating information. I know what I meant. Its not a euphemism. |
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Post by banned on Sept 20, 2014 5:03:45 GMT
call it what you want in your attempt to be nice, but that is the very definition of lying. |
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Post by Danjal on Sept 20, 2014 5:29:04 GMT
Not exactly, a lie is outright and undeniable.
Manipulation of information can be anything from omission of information (which could be interpreted as a lie of omission).
But also putting the focus on different elements, spotlighting true information to take the attention away from less favorable information and other such decoy tactics.
And then the big one - fullfilling 'promises' on technicalities alone. Especially this last one isn't a "lie" - while its not honest and ethical behaviour, its not a lie.
Calling it lies is doing injustice to the situation since it only envelops part of what they've done. Yes they've lied, but they've done a lot of other things that I call into question.
Though I personally don't see what I have to lose in giving them a chance to repent. If I can get a better game out of it I'm willing to give them that chance.
And I can give them that chance while reserving the right to recommend not buying to anyone untill such a day that the game itself is improved.
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Post by banned on Sept 22, 2014 0:55:14 GMT
A lie is an intentional declaration in bad faith. Whether it is by not providing known information, a lie of omission, or as you say by "dancing around the truth", still a lie of omission, or an intentional misrepresentation, a boldface lie, or in action incongruous with obligation, is irrelevant. Dishonesty by word or deed is lying. No careful lawyerin' or wordsmithin' changes that. 22cans has through pubic declaration, interview, and representative repeatedly lied in word and in deed. Denial of reality serves no one. |
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Post by Danjal on Sept 22, 2014 3:31:08 GMT
Dishonesty and lying are not the same thing, not being honest and outright lying are different states of deception.
Much like a dog is an animal, but an animal doesn't have to be a dog.
An outright lie and a dishonesty aren't necessarily the same thing.
For easy of linguistics you could argue they are, the reality isn't that simple.
22cans has lied, 22cans also has been 'creative with the truth'.
The latter aren't always lies... Especially not provable lies.
I know you like to just paint them all black - but at the end of the day it isn't all black.
While its quite clear that 22cans has gone though a variety of deceptions in order to get where they are.
And they have at times lied (be it intentionally or otherwise) - they have not exclusively lied.
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Post by hardly on Sept 22, 2014 4:13:34 GMT
Obviously context, intent and circumstance are relevant as well.
I think 22cans used certain code words and references that they knew would suggest something to PC players other than what they have done. I'm not going to say they lied but I believe they knew the kind of expectations they we're creating.
Peter is a self confessed serial offender in this regard. Perhaps the train wreck that is GODUS will convince him to look at his own behaviour.
I think te GODUS store page in steam needs a big "this game is available FTP on Apple iOS and the content is very similar" banner across the screenshots. Anything else is lies by omission.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Sept 22, 2014 5:23:37 GMT
So very very dark grey? Off-black? Charcoal?
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Post by hardly on Sept 22, 2014 5:56:44 GMT
Poo-Gray?
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Post by Danjal on Sept 22, 2014 11:32:00 GMT
So very very dark grey? Off-black? Charcoal? Definitely a wide variety of grey-tints of various degrees. Some more so than others. And quite a few bits of black. Just not exclusively so. |
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stuhacking
Master
Posts: 170
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by stuhacking on Sept 22, 2014 11:48:05 GMT
I think you need to see a doctor... |
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