heggers
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Post by heggers on Apr 30, 2015 12:12:48 GMT
In general, I'm still of the opinion that deleting posts at all should be a last resort action. In the case of bullying and trolling, modification of the offending sections is preferably, but after a warning and request for modification has been made to the author of the post. The amount of ridiculous forum moderation for this game still baffles me. The *only* way it can be interpreted is as a means of trying to silence negativity, but it isn't working. Thanks to numerous mods across all of the Steam community (and Godus mods are no exception), Valve have revoked that power.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 21:41:47 GMT
muir I do so wish you would stop <snipping> quotes on Steam and deleting the original. It makes it difficult to justify your response to a comment when the comment no longer exists and you haven't retained any of the relevant information. (And my suspicion that posts have been deleted is from inspecting the html and finding that quote links have no valid target.) You can also figure out which topic was moved/deleted from the ID in the source of the notification page, then comparing that to a forum index snapshot. Also - if someone were to spider the forum then it would be a simple matter to have a script run through and check how many quotes are valid - something being worked upon for examining some of Steam's censor-happy problem children. It is working, but I'm not sure it's working towards the intended effect - if 22cans were working to look utterly cocked-up they're doing a marvelous job. Except for the three people actually creating new content, while we're given really hilarious excuses about why 22cans can't tell us regularly about those who are supposedly working on the game they'll regularly trot out whenever this is mentioned. So nice of 22cans to recognise those people in the Daily Dev Shows of Activity that routinely show...how few actual developers have been left on Godus.
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Post by militairensneuvelen on May 3, 2015 7:58:33 GMT
Normally you only -snip- if you want to respond to VERY specific parts of a post (no need to quote 3 pages)
Still 3 weeks to go for my penishead remark.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on May 3, 2015 10:41:48 GMT
Normally you only -snip- if you want to respond to VERY specific parts of a post (no need to quote 3 pages) Still 3 weeks to go for my penishead remark. Well in the meantime you can post all your thoughts here.
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Post by Spiderweb on May 4, 2015 16:38:59 GMT
What he said. First of all I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure they haven't had tens of millions of dollars, a 22+ member team and industry legend leading them. They are a genuine indie who made a very off beat game that shouldn't have been a success. As you say mandrake the game has been good to play for years. I started playing it a couple of years ago I think and even trying to get to orbit was incredibly challenging fun and I learned stuff. It is offensive to compare the two games as KSP represents all that is good with early access and GODUS represents all that's wrong with it. Where GODUS has no interesting challenge, KSP has insane interesting challenges. I didn't follow the development of Kerbel Space Program, but i don't think they took 3/4 of the whole team and started developing another game whilst in the middle of development of KSP. I think that's the most obvious difference between those two games. Most of us are aware of the time it takes to develop a pc game (except Peter Molyneux and his Guildford Gang - as he mentioned more than once). So it's absolutly bullshit to compare Godus with KSP (or most, if not all, successful SEA games - and many of the not so successful games. And i am not talking about financial success). On a side note, very much enjoying KSP. Very simple/enjoyable game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2015 0:25:24 GMT
I didn't follow the development of Kerbel Space Program, but i don't think they took 3/4 of the whole team and started developing another game whilst in the middle of development of KSP. I think that's the most obvious difference between those two games. Most of us are aware of the time it takes to develop a pc game (except Peter Molyneux and his Guildford Gang - as he mentioned more than once). So it's absolutly bullshit to compare Godus with KSP (or most, if not all, successful SEA games - and many of the not so successful games. And i am not talking about financial success). On a side note, very much enjoying KSP. Very simple/enjoyable game. Squad did an amazing job, and here's a brief bit why. 1. They never misrepresented what their title was going to be and kept with that vision throughout development. It sounded ludicrous...up until you saw someone playing it a bit, then it just sparked off what you could do and the modding scene went ablaze. Then MORE videos showed up with even crazier contraptions, which in turn spawned the creation of more mods. 2. They continuously interacted with their community and well enough that their forums are a contrast to Godus' - there is generally far less to be unhappy about, while their community interaction has been there to the point that they're obviously listening and paying attention. To be fair, Squad have not had to deal with major scandal and the resultant PR work necessary to mollify customers afterwards, probably because they had the bright idea to avoid doing that in the first place. 3. ULTIMATE MODDER FANSERVICE: Instead of that paid mods rubbish, Squad did what is considered an even bigger compliment - added some of the mods to the core game. While to the layman it might sound like someone's work being listed as "Obsolete" in a mod directory might sound like a bad thing, to a modder it's no bigger compliment that they came up with the original idea to fix/add some gameplay element that was deemed good enough to become part of the official game. The modders are there to add to a game, and so if their work is good enough to be made official - CV filler right there if going into a game development job (and depending upon the job, even your old college D&D campaigns can be useful - ahh, I still vaguely remember when Josh Sawyer of now Obsidian had to take the nervous trek into the Interplay/Black Isle Studios offices with an armful of old notebooks...and look where all of his old material helped get him today.) Now only if Bethesda did the same to their crappy interfaces... 4. They kept steadily improving upon the game in every facet possible. This goes well in hand with #2, but with the added bonus that their community kept expanding instead of shrinking. 5. They also had an appropriate number of developers for what they were working upon (versus maybe 1/2 in actual development on Godus?): kerbalspaceprogram.com/about.php
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 21:25:18 GMT
I wonder if they are aware how bad the whole "keeping around the one obviously baiting and mocking backers and customers" thing looks, especially with the preferential treatment and previous arsepull moderation standards and 22cans' own antagonism, that it offers the public impression that because someone appears to be championing them somehow 22cans are looking for "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/6/618458030686194549/#c620712999971765631Since you can't just magically make everyone happy, why bother trying? That generally seems to go hand-in-hand and skipping along with 22cans' own customer service policy (see: George Carlin's stand-up on this subject, NSFW obviously). If this is someone at 22cans or a mate, it is in real poor taste...and appears to be what they're REALLY thinking about customers (considering the moderators' actions right after having a meeting at 22cans). It is also one of the bigger indications that there is no hope for the game as the PR is that desperate. So minus any positive PR presence to really speak of, or even making accurate public statements that are accompanied with further uncorrected spin-doctoring by the moderation staff, you generally have this sort of stuff in its place that has apparently been given the silent nod from 22cans. I might be missing something here; was this how 22cans wanted to appear to the public?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2015 23:19:01 GMT
The person in question just may be a boring, try-hard asswit... Even though you make a great point, I choose to ignore him/her.
#vanishbackintoshadow
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2015 23:52:50 GMT
So the answer to folks raiding issue of poor communication is to...try to hide how they've pointed it out. Have you folks at 22cans learned what Streisand Effect is yet, and why does it appear that you're going for it intentionally?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2015 9:13:11 GMT
Does 22cans have "English as a second language" moderators? steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/6/618458030686194549/#c620712999985642946There IS a difference between attacking the actions of someone, someone's post, and the person themselves. In this, it was clearly calling Fraggle's actions/"argument" pathetic. (Then again, I was "rage posting" by asking if someone had played a piece of Godus game.) That would involve context...and in which, their pet troll's personal comments go completely unmarked while they'll use as an excuse to delete posts for mentions of this, as my previous post details. Looks like 22cans are starting this week strong on the fail (they have to compete with last week's somehow). Edit: So "btw" who did this? Another convenient "Steam Community Moderator" (which their outdated fake rules claim both Aynen and Muir to be)?
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Post by greay on May 11, 2015 20:22:51 GMT
What does it say that a thread titled "Banning the community" is one of the most popular threads on the Steam forums for about a month running?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 8:22:00 GMT
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Post by Crumpy Six on May 12, 2015 9:37:18 GMT
Maybe FraggleRock is has some connection to 22Cans, and the mods know it and are letting him get away with anything.
Or maybe the mods are biased because FraggleRock is defending the game and the studio.
Or maybe he's just an average, awful Steam forum user and in the judgement of the mods he hasn't quite done enough to justify taking any action.
I don't see that it makes much difference. He's never going to admit to being any kind of 'insider' and you can never prove it. The mods are doing a crappy job of managing the situation, but that's nothing new - the moderation of the Steam forum has always sucked. This person's behaviour is shitty but it's also typical of loads of other people who post on Steam, including those who complain about Godus. Most people on these boards gave up on Steam a long time ago for all of these reasons.
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Post by hardly on May 12, 2015 9:46:43 GMT
Maybe FraggleRock is has some connection to 22Cans, and the mods know it and are letting him get away with anything. Or maybe the mods are biased because FraggleRock is defending the game and the studio. Or maybe he's just an average, awful Steam forum user and in the judgement of the mods he hasn't quite done enough to justify taking any action. I don't see that it makes much difference. He's never going to admit to being any kind of 'insider' and you can never prove it. The mods are doing a crappy job of managing the situation, but that's nothing new - the moderation of the Steam forum has always sucked. This person's behaviour is shitty but it's also typical of loads of other people who post on Steam, including those who complain about Godus. Most people on these boards gave up on Steam a long time ago for all of these reasons. Personally I would have no problem with their approach to Fraggle if it was even handed and they didn't hammer anyone arguing with him for things that I don't even believe are against the rules. The issue is overzealous moderation not a lack of moderation. Finally with regard to Fraggle I want to point out his arguments are lame and are largely made up of logical fallacies e.g. "You don't know what you are talking about." So I'm ok with him making weak arguments on the forum and generally coming off as an idiot who is just trying to wind people up. I don't need the mods to "punish" him beyond that.
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Post by Crumpy Six on May 12, 2015 9:52:05 GMT
He's doing a massively effective job of winding people up, as evidenced by how often he gets talked about here in the context of crappy management of the Steam boards.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 11:03:40 GMT
He's doing a massively effective job of winding people up, as evidenced by how often he gets talked about here in the context of crappy management of the Steam boards. When the pet troll is used for finding excuses to ban folks from the forums then it is quite a PR concern. Displaying their antics in context to the bad moderation is just another unfortunate detail of 22cans' public policy as a solution to throw water onto a grease fire. This is also compounded that they are continually misrepresenting a guide as being "Steam rules". They are also offering a few curious reasons given for why there has become a withdrawal from communications along with more worrying claims about the development (I have posted some of these reasons in other threads). One of the developers showed a bit of open honesty and 22cans reacted in horror, keeping them on a tight leash otherwise. Early Access and Kickstarted as transparent development and all that, but...it's really hard to say that there's much to believe in with how 22cans has enacted their public policy. Offered suggestions were ignored, and it seems like we're expected to believe that there's now no producer upon Godus as it is difficult to figure out what the team is doing on a daily basis for the PR guy to post. All Dave should have to do is fill in the blanks for each post for each developer's section; nice and in routine order of developers like a living credits list and what they are doing. If someone is out sick or on vacation, then the producer should be one of if not the first to know about it and it should be reflected accordingly in updates. Then go to a browser with pages automatically set to open on every active news outlet and Copy+Paste a few times. The next morning read the replies and respond accordingly, then hand a summary of those concerns to the entire team in their daily briefing, and where each developer may address those concerns as they see fit, along with any major e-mail concerns collected from the previous day. That really shouldn't take much time at all. It is something you should be doing to keep consistent team focus, even on a daily basis. But the producer is discouraging them from speaking to the public. Supposedly, so they can focus upon their work. Which can't be reported about accurately. The wheel of spin-cycle goes round and round! TL;DR Version: Are we supposed to expect that interoffice communication is THAT...non-existent...while at the same time 22cans claims they are talking to each other and relaying along information? We DO see the team talking to each other in front of the Twitch cam.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 16:36:08 GMT
Imo it doesn't really matter who Fraggle is. The "mods" have exhibited their inability and indiscretion time and time again, especially in regards to this particularly boring, predictable troll. Anyone viewing the forums in any depth can see the behaviour. They are neither intelligent nor clandestine in the way they have been dealing with either side of the community. As an aside... It's a sign of maturity and professionalism when someone owns a message, especially when it isn't favourable. Neither Aynen nor Muir seem inclined to do so, especially when they take the time point out moderation happened "neither by Aynen nor Muir's hand"... "We didn't delete that post! It was someone else!!!" Right. You had no hand in passing this off to a Steam mod... We get it.. .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 19:41:14 GMT
It takes one look at Fraggie's post history to see all he does is go on different community forums, usually those of pay-to-win, unfinished games, and then make vitriolic remarks about how entitled people are for expecting more of the developers. Pretty simple fellow to figure out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 22:42:50 GMT
Imo it doesn't really matter who Fraggle is. The "mods" have exhibited their inability and indiscretion time and time again, especially in regards to this particularly boring, predictable troll. Anyone viewing the forums in any depth can see the behaviour. They are neither intelligent nor clandestine in the way they have been dealing with either side of the community. As an aside... It's a sign of maturity and professionalism when someone owns a message, especially when it isn't favourable. Neither Aynen nor Muir seem inclined to do so, especially when they take the time point out moderation happened "neither by Aynen nor Muir's hand"... "We didn't delete that post! It was someone else!!!" Right. You had no hand in passing this off to a Steam mod... We get it.. . Neither would look as culpable if they didn't delete and ban for far more spurious reasons, again sometimes in favour of their pet who has so far deliberately misrepresented everyone's position except for maybe twice by accident.
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Post by militairensneuvelen on May 13, 2015 7:24:00 GMT
The moderators never went to "constructive criticism" class... They don't know the difference between "personal attack" and "critique" So this one goes out to all our favorite moderators on the Steam forums: personalexcellence.co/blog/constructive-criticism/It shows the difference between "personal attack" and "constructive criticism". What the moderators don't appreciate is that as soon as "constructive criticism" is interpreted as an attack (the receiving party doesn't listen and/or doesn't know the difference), they think it's ok to moderate the post containing "constructive criticism" The difference between "What you said makes you a dick" and "What you just said goes against what the majority here thinks, you might want to revise that" Big difference. Both taken as personal attacks on the Steam Godus forums (in the end you might as well call someone a DICK because there is no room for "constructive criticism" at all. And they don't know the difference between making a statement and asking a question either. "Are you serious?" (the receiving party can still answer in any way) "I don't believe you" (no more room for discussion..... a.k.a. quite insulting....)
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