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Post by Gmr Leon on Jun 10, 2015 0:39:48 GMT
I read it as < 2 hours played, and purchased within 14 days = automatic refund. Purchased over 6 months ago = no refund at all, ever. Which screws most Godus owners I'd reckon. While I didn't read it as harshly, that's close to how I read it. I read the 6 month part mostly as, maaybbeee...But probably not.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jun 10, 2015 0:48:58 GMT
That policy pretty much eliminates anyone from getting a refund for an SEA title gone bad. One step forward, two steps back...
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Post by hardly on Jun 10, 2015 1:25:38 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 3:14:18 GMT
I wonder how hard it would be for Valve to provide a short set of prewritten reasons for wanting a refund the user could select from when refunding a game. That way there's at least some idea. I can't imaging giving people a small text box to write a reason could be managed in a non toxic way entirely , but at least it would be there for the honest folks who really do want to be helpful and get a refund too.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jun 10, 2015 3:21:29 GMT
It's still too soon to know if that "lurch" is genuinely an abuse of the system or just a short-term dip due to the new policy; with that said, it does need some fine tuning and a more rigorous effort to impose better stipulations for varying conditions. The current return policy (not just Steam) is a bit too narrow, and forgoes addressing any real issues with games that may have been purchased long ago, but never played - only to discover they are unplayable or just not worth the dime. And them as we are aware, there's the problem with Early Access games; it should be returnable up and to the full release - and any time played during the development phase should be considered "Play-testing" not actual "game time".
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Post by Spiderweb on Jun 10, 2015 5:58:04 GMT
It's still too soon to know if that "lurch" is genuinely an abuse of the system or just a short-term dip due to the new policy; with that said, it does need some fine tuning and a more rigorous effort to impose better stipulations for varying conditions. The current return policy (not just Steam) is a bit too narrow, and forgoes addressing any real issues with games that may have been purchased long ago, but never played - only to discover they are unplayable or just not worth the dime. And them as we are aware, there's the problem with Early Access games; it should be returnable up and to the full release - and any time played during the development phase should be considered "Play-testing" not actual "game time". EA being exempt from <2hr/<14month would surely lead to better community interactions to keep those EA "backers". But bad for companies where that is lacking or game is just currently awful. Do devs now have to wait 2 weeks + 2hrs for their revenue (or was that always the case)?
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tikigod
Master
Resistance is mean.
Posts: 115
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Post by tikigod on Jun 10, 2015 6:23:23 GMT
I wonder how hard it would be for Valve to provide a short set of prewritten reasons for wanting a refund the user could select from when refunding a game. That way there's at least some idea. I can't imaging giving people a small text box to write a reason could be managed in a non toxic way entirely , but at least it would be there for the honest folks who really do want to be helpful and get a refund too. This is already the case. When filing for a refund you state a reason such as gameplay/technical reasons. There's even a form you can fill in to provide additional details on why you want a refund, with the page stating Valve may share your reasons with the developers to help them improve things. As the entire thing is very early days, guessing a lot of the feedback communications either aren't working fully yet or developers aren't looking in the right place for feedback instead just looking at volume numbers and glossing over any additional information that may be provided (assuming the person requesting the refund bothered to provide constructive feedback rather than just bitching)
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Post by eskaton23 on Jun 10, 2015 7:35:31 GMT
This is already the case. When filing for a refund you state a reason such as gameplay/technical reasons. There's even a form you can fill in to provide additional details on why you want a refund, with the page stating Valve may share your reasons with the developers to help them improve things. There is no form.....all I get is a note saying: Refund: Sep 18, 2013 - Godus - £14.99 Refund to my Steam Wallet This purchase occurred significantly outside the refund window, and cannot be refunded. You can only submit refund requests for purchases made within the last 6 months. Which is crap.
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tikigod
Master
Resistance is mean.
Posts: 115
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Post by tikigod on Jun 10, 2015 8:51:03 GMT
There's even a form you can fill in to provide additional details on why you want a refund, with the page stating Valve may share your reasons with the developers to help them improve things. There is no form.....all I get is a note saying: Refund: Sep 18, 2013 - Godus - £14.99 Refund to my Steam Wallet This purchase occurred significantly outside the refund window, and cannot be refunded. You can only submit refund requests for purchases made within the last 6 months. Which is crap. Yep, but that's for Godus. Which for most people will not fall under the base criteria to make a general refund request. But if the Refund is a valid case under the standard rules you get taken to the actual refund request page, where you pick the nature of why you wish a refund and the form to give a detailed explanation which can be shared with the developers. The process feels very much automated, after sending a refund request for a game where you meet the under 2 hours/2 week criteria you're told that it has been forwarded to support for review, but with a turn around of a successful refund request on a game (not godus) of 3 hours on a Sunday, I definitely think it's just an automated process that double checks to make sure the purchase and other criteria checks out before automatically just green lighting the refund request with no human eyes ever really seeing it. Though I do suspect that if you clock a certain number of refund requests within a certain interval then it will flag your account for review and a human set of eyes will then actually look into why you've been making so many requests and then decide on what action to take. It mentions on the Refund FAQ page if they decide you're abusing the refund policy they will remove your ability to request refunds for example.
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Post by totallytim on Jun 10, 2015 9:15:54 GMT
TB's video shows that this data is put out of context. The sales dropped when the game in question stopped being on a -50% sale, and the 70% refund rate represents 13 out of 18 sold games. The article is basically about less than $20 of "lost" (lost sale fallacy) revenue. The video is quite informative on the subject. I like the new policy but too bad it doesn't cover "long forgotten" throwaway SEA titles. A below 40% user rating, a cry out for action/refunds and a pretty much non changing game, should probably make a SEA game eligible for a refund no matter when it was bought or how many hours were spent on it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 12:24:53 GMT
TB's video shows that this data is put out of context. The sales dropped when the game in question stopped being on a -50% sale, and the 70% refund rate represents 13 out of 18 sold games. The article is basically about less than $20 of "lost" (lost sale fallacy) revenue. The video is quite informative on the subject. I like the new policy but too bad it doesn't cover "long forgotten" throwaway SEA titles. A below 40% user rating, a cry out for action/refunds and a pretty much non changing game, should probably make a SEA game eligible for a refund no matter when it was bought or how many hours were spent on it. 8 minutes in he explains the main reason why you don't want to hold onto dissatisfied customers, especially when the game you sold them is...not giving them fun. Expecting customers to want to play a game more because of buyer's remorse "to get their money's worth" is usually Cliffski's trademarked ignorance...
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jun 10, 2015 12:51:12 GMT
I wonder how hard it would be for Valve to provide a short set of prewritten reasons for wanting a refund the user could select from when refunding a game. That way there's at least some idea. I can't imaging giving people a small text box to write a reason could be managed in a non toxic way entirely , but at least it loo would be there for the honest folks who really do want to be helpful and get a refund too. I don't see why not, that's how many online retailers handle return requests; look at any number of them - like Amazon, Newegg, TigerDirect, BestBuy, etc. - ,and they all ask for the reason while giving you a few choice options, and an explanation field. This allows them to better sort the requests and make more fair determinations. Steam doesn't provide that page until after your request is accepted - and from what I've read, other sites like GMG and Origin are equally difficult. Digital media storefronts have a long way to go to get the refund process right, that protects from abuse but also provides better consumer rights for redemption.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jun 10, 2015 17:02:13 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2015 22:49:55 GMT
"If you aren’t happy with my game, I don’t want your money." - Jeff Vogel, of Avernum developers Spiderweb Software The Avernum and Geneforge series along with quite a few other titles. Real indie. Understands how the whole business thing works because he's had to since the 90s. I'm not surprised that some shovelware developers are trying to cry about this - even the Code Avarice kiddies could be useful for a quote, even if it later turns out hilarious as they manage to cock-up their own business deals at every opportunity while most of their problems were originally caused by themselves. Of course those who tried to push sucky, half-arsed games out onto the market to (what they expect) a naive audience are going to feel the burn when the pig eventually escapes from the poke.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jun 10, 2015 23:22:11 GMT
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Post by totallytim on Jun 11, 2015 6:35:20 GMT
"If you aren't happy with my game, you haven't given me enough money." - PM
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tikigod
Master
Resistance is mean.
Posts: 115
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Post by tikigod on Jun 11, 2015 7:36:44 GMT
"If you aren't happy with my game, you haven't given me enough money." - PM "If you aren't happy with my game, I don't want to hear about it. The problem is you just haven't waited long enough. That's how development works I swear." - PM Longer version: "The key to community driven development is understand that everyone playing the game is wrong and short sighted. You're always right. All the player should have to do is pay money for one concept then wait quietly and be accepting of whatever it is you decide to deliver even if it's not targeted at the people you initially purposely attracted. Any further input from your players is detrimental to development and simply causes problems. This isn't misrepresentation or questionable ethically. It's how development works. No one can understand that but you, so shut out their voices. The only people who will resist are those that can't understand, so don't waste time on them." - PM
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Post by speedio on Jun 21, 2015 2:11:12 GMT
It seems like you can request a refund for any game now. No matter how long ago the purchase was and how long you have played. It's not an automatic process though. I just submitted a refund request on godus. I don't have very high hopes though. But with some luck I will get it. I bought it over 6 months ago and I have over 8 hours of playtime. I really wish I did not give it a chance when I first bought it and had less then 1 hour playtime to have that as an argument at least. If I get it I'll be sure to post here again with how the process was. I tried getting a refund on it earlier by submitting a ticket on steam. But then all I got was that steam does not give refunds for games outside the 6 months window and high playtime. With lots of "helpfull" links to steam rules
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2015 3:24:26 GMT
It seems like you can request a refund for any game now. No matter how long ago the purchase was and how long you have played. It's not an automatic process though. That is actually a good sign for customers, a bad sign for some developers as it shows VALVe who the problem children are, and why. I wonder how 22cans' tune will change if VALVe has to step in specifically for Godus, since 22cans have been given plenty of opportunities to do anything to show that they can be arsed about their customers but instead have routinely been passing their own horrible customer service off as being Steam and Early Access' responsibility, not theirs. Will the future be seen as 22cans doing something to right the wrongs, or instead be Big Bad Ol' Steam "keeping the developer down" or some such rubbish? 22cans has the opportunity to proactively try for a good effect...and just as much of an opportunity to do nothing and then look like they don't give a damn. Keep in mind that all of those refund requests will likely include details of how Godus was sold upon Steam (including the fake "screenshots"), along with how the game turned from what it once was into a mobile port, so it would really look better for 22cans if they showed some initiative upon this on their own rather than have Peter crying about it later. Good luck on your refund.
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Post by speedio on Jun 21, 2015 5:02:27 GMT
I'm afraid I already got a response from steam. The reply from steam. " Hello speedio We have reviewed your refund request. We are unable to refund this purchase to your Steam Wallet at this time. Your playtime of an included product exceeds 2 hours (our refund policy maximum). Godus - Playtime: 8 hours 40 minutes Purchased: Sep 15, 2013 CEST Requests are considered on a case by case basis and are not typically issued for purchases of released products that are more than 14 days old, or if the purchased product has more than 2 hours of playtime. For in-game items the refund period is 48 hours and the item must not have been consumed, modified, or transferred. To learn more about the refund process, please visit store.steampowered.com/steam_refunds/The Steam Support Team help.steampowered.com/" By the speed they processed this refund request I doubt they looked very hard at it. And if they will decline any refund request that is not available for a refund automatically I'm not sure why they let people request a refund for those games anyway. I'm not sure what it would take to get my money back for this title. This is really the only game I have wanted a refund for. And I have been burned in the past by EA games and shitty preorders. But this one has gotten personal for me for some reason.
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