Matthew Allen
Former 22Cans staff
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Post by Matthew Allen on Jun 3, 2014 16:54:57 GMT
Dear developers, In the roadmap related discussion you mention that you intend to recommence working on the PC version in a few months. Can you please clarify does that mean you will be working on the PC version such that it will continue to closely follow the mobile design (as it does today) or do you mean you will be working to take the PC version in a fundamentally different direction. One of the problems with the roadmap is it doesn't explain how the PC game will be different from the mobile version. As it stands today the versions are very similar. It seems the main and only difference is that the mobile game has microtransactions. We won't be properly diving into this stuff until late Summer or early Autumn but getting the PC game to a place where it feels more like a PC game is the idea behind that focus, though aside from some of the stuff mentioned in the roadmap I don't have any specifics to offer just yet. Much of the team is actually very anxious to refocus back on PC. For most of us, it's our preferred gaming platform (and I lump myself into that group). We were actually chatting with Jack earlier and were tentatively thinking that it might be a good idea to put together a supplementary roadmap sometime around Autumn that focuses exclusively on PC. Nothing's set in stone on that (was chatted about only casually) but I imagine that's something you all would like to see? Question 1: Why does 22Cans often release important information right before the start of a weekend, or long holiday - it is just coincidence, or is there a direct, meaningful and defensible (read: understandable) purpose to it?If there is a good and solid reason for this, please explain so we can understand better - and therefore know what to expect and not get inflamed when it occurs. No hard feelings, I just find it odd how often it happens. Question 2: [two parts] Is there anything on the Roadmap that you, as a player, would like to see changed or done differently? and Is there anything on the Roadmap that you're really (seriously) excited about in terms of gameplay?
And please, try to be honest. We respect honesty over PR spinning - though, I understand and respect protecting your job, too - so just say so if you're not comfortable answering 100% openly. I don't think it's intentional (as far as I know, at least). I think what usually happens is we'll give ourselves a task to be completed within the week and usually our workload happens in such a way that we're scrambling at the end of the week to get it out by our deadlines. In some cases, George or myself will be working until quite late to make sure we get something out the week that we've committed ourselves to. On the roadmap, for example, George was in the office until 9:30pm and had to take a taxi back home to London that night. I do see where you're coming from though, as it can be a bit annoying to release something significant and then immediately jump into the weekend. As for your second question, I've always been more of a single player gamer for most games. While I don't mind multiplayer (and, in some cases, really love it), the roadmap is pretty heavy on elaborating the multiplayer elements. To be clear, I don't mind that necessarily, because it's a big and exciting part of Godus, but I'm also really looking forward to the single player taking some solid shape. Though, again, that's just personal preference more than anything. As far as what I'm most looking forward to, it's the later ages. I feel like there's so much of the game that will really start coming together once we reach that point and will start to make more sense in the grand scheme of the game. I've noticed the 22Cans PR front always falls quiet right after some bombshell is dropped, clearly not wanting to get involved in the immediate fallout. George's last post in this thread was May 20th so even with all of his other projects, he's had plenty of opportunity to respond if he felt inclined to do so. I can't speak to George's schedule personally (though I do know he's super busy), but most cases it's just that our workload tends to increase (reporting, spreadsheets, etc.) after big news is dropped and, in many cases, news seems to come prior to the weekend as well. Though I agree, we could be doing better on this front, even in the unofficial channels such as this.
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splitterwind
Master
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I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 3, 2014 17:51:18 GMT
Why is it so hard for 22cans to give even the slightest insight on planned features for the PC version or whether or not the two versions will drastically differ in the end?
For example "we will take another look at the resource management because it has been criticized so often."... It doesn't have to be planned out in every detail.
Its sounds like another stalling tactic. Thats not the first 22cans made a similar vague promise, we all know how that turned out.
Peter had no problem to explain features that were apparently never even worked on and possibly impossible to implement with the used engine in much detail before 22cans hit steam early access and now all of a sudden 22cans has to be absolutely secretive about everything... It just sounds like a pathetic excuse to stall us further.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 4, 2014 13:18:00 GMT
Let's see if (say, by early next week) we can illicit a response to this thread. Question 1: Why does 22Cans often release important information right before the start of a weekend, or long holiday - it is just coincidence, or is there a direct, meaningful and defensible (read: understandable) purpose to it?If there is a good and solid reason for this, please explain so we can understand better - and therefore know what to expect and not get inflamed when it occurs. No hard feelings, I just find it odd how often it happens. Question 2: [two parts] Is there anything on the Roadmap that you, as a player, would like to see changed or done differently? and Is there anything on the Roadmap that you're really (seriously) excited about in terms of gameplay?
And please, try to be honest. We respect honesty over PR spinning - though, I understand and respect protecting your job, too - so just say so if you're not comfortable answering 100% openly. - Um... it's just kinda worked out like that so far? This is all on me. There's no real fixed process as to our publication dates, other than maybe I feel a bit more pressure if there's a holiday or long weekend looming.
- Yes, I'm seriously excited about all the items in the Lots and Lots of Additional Features section, but especially the last two bullet points. In terms of things being done differently, I think it'd be nice to get the Imperial Age out sooner rather than later, but I respect we still need to make adjustments to the Bronze Age mechanics first and that Hubworld will bring brand new mechanics into the game.
I've noticed the 22Cans PR front always falls quiet right after some bombshell is dropped, clearly not wanting to get involved in the immediate fallout. George's last post in this thread was May 20th so even with all of his other projects, he's had plenty of opportunity to respond if he felt inclined to do so. That's really not true, I'm always inclined to post on forums (it's my fave part of the job!), however doing so isn't always possible due to conflicting demands on my time during the work day.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 4, 2014 13:27:41 GMT
Why is it so hard for 22cans to give even the slightest insight on planned features for the PC version or whether or not the two versions will drastically differ in the end? For example "we will take another look at the resource management because it has been criticized so often."... It doesn't have to be planned out in every detail. Its sounds like another stalling tactic. Thats not the first 22cans made a similar vague promise, we all know how that turned out. Please see this post.
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 7, 2014 22:11:28 GMT
Were any design patterns used in Godus? If so, which patterns were used and what were they used on? As few as bloody possible. realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=44regarding doing an hour long video... I think that would be cool, but I think something periodic would be better. Short snippets. Snippets of wisdom, or tales from the trenches.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 7, 2014 22:20:53 GMT
As few as bloody possible. realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=44regarding doing an hour long video... I think that would be cool, but I think something periodic would be better. Short snippets. Snippets of wisdom, or tales from the trenches. How about a video about how you built the prototype?
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 7, 2014 22:30:12 GMT
As few as bloody possible. realtimecollisiondetection.net/blog/?p=44regarding doing an hour long video... I think that would be cool, but I think something periodic would be better. Short snippets. Snippets of wisdom, or tales from the trenches. How about a video about how you built the prototype? I'd love to do that.
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Post by rubgish on Aug 8, 2014 11:42:16 GMT
Questions on the mobile release!
1) Is the launch going better/worse/about as you expected? 2) How are download numbers going? I understand if you aren't willing to give actual numbers, but are you happy with the number of downloads at the moment? [Currently looks to be listed 15th in the app store which I figure is pretty decent] 3) Are people actually purchasing gems in-game, and how does the purchasing pattern compare to what you expected? 4) The game is only 91.5MB, first off, how have you managed to keep it that small? And secondly, what differences are there between the PC vs iOS version that makes the PC version so much bigger?
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 8, 2014 12:05:58 GMT
Why is it so hard for 22cans to give even the slightest insight on planned features for the PC version or whether or not the two versions will drastically differ in the end? I'm going to be blunt here for a change: Why don't we tell you what features are coming next? Well, it's got something to do with how you make a great game vs expectation. Most of you don't believe in Godus as a great game, but we're still trying to follow the tenets of great game development, and one of those things is to kill your babies just like you do when writing. If an ardent Potter fan was told they could get their hands on a full text version of book X with all the stuff that was written and thrown away put back in again, do you think they would even stop to think before handing over the cash for the "special edition"? I certainly don't think so, and I also think the book with the extra content is actually worth less than the one that was published. There's a reason why fiction writers spend more time writing than non-fiction writers, it's about culling and revisions, and realising that what you've written just doesn't work. I've written fiction, written games, and in both cases, I've lost chapters/features from them before release just because they just shouldn't be in there. The best game/book, is the one with all the good bits, and nothing can be taken away. (like Lord Ba'al 's signature decries) Sometimes we implement a great big game feature, test it, make it work and play with it, even extend it, and then just cut out of the game. I remember Shigeru Miyamoto saying somewhere that you should "make the sequel" to any game idea. This fits nicely because last century, I got the feeling that developers didn't know how to cut the crap, and a sequel was the safe way to explain how to do just that. And that's the problem we have as game developers if we announce what's in a game before we publish it. When you announce something, there is an expectation that it will happen, and it just makes everyone angrier when it doesn't happen, or worse, happens due to popular opinion, and then gets ripped out like it should have been from day one. I think that we try to ride a balance between announcing features, and concealing them, between keeping people in the loop, and not breaking hearts. Sometimes things get out, like settlements, and now some people are going to miss them, but the majority will prefer the new ones. I don't think there is any way everyone will be happy with the amount of communication, but we can always try to be open about how we work, even if not what we are working on specifically. And don't tell anyone about the up and coming dragons and knights stuff. I'd hate it if that bit got out.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 12:22:29 GMT
Why is it so hard for 22cans to give even the slightest insight on planned features for the PC version or whether or not the two versions will drastically differ in the end? I'm going to be blunt here for a change: Why don't we tell you what features are coming next? Well, it's got something to do with how you make a great game vs expectation. Most of you don't believe in Godus as a great game, but we're still trying to follow the tenets of great game development, and one of those things is to kill your babies just like you do when writing. If an ardent Potter fan was told they could get their hands on a full text version of book X with all the stuff that was written and thrown away put back in again, do you think they would even stop to think before handing over the cash for the "special edition"? I certainly don't think so, and I also think the book with the extra content is actually worth less than the one that was published. There's a reason why fiction writers spend more time writing than non-fiction writers, it's about culling and revisions, and realising that what you've written just doesn't work. I've written fiction, written games, and in both cases, I've lost chapters/features from them before release just because they just shouldn't be in there. The best game/book, is the one with all the good bits, and nothing can be taken away. (like Lord Ba'al 's signature decries) Sometimes we implement a great big game feature, test it, make it work and play with it, even extend it, and then just cut out of the game. I remember Shigeru Miyamoto saying somewhere that you should "make the sequel" to any game idea. This fits nicely because last century, I got the feeling that developers didn't know how to cut the crap, and a sequel was the safe way to explain how to do just that. And that's the problem we have as game developers if we announce what's in a game before we publish it. When you announce something, there is an expectation that it will happen, and it just makes everyone angrier when it doesn't happen, or worse, happens due to popular opinion, and then gets ripped out like it should have been from day one. I think that we try to ride a balance between announcing features, and concealing them, between keeping people in the loop, and not breaking hearts. Sometimes things get out, like settlements, and now some people are going to miss them, but the majority will prefer the new ones. I don't think there is any way everyone will be happy with the amount of communication, but we can always try to be open about how we work, even if not what we are working on specifically. And don't tell anyone about the up and coming dragons and knights stuff. I'd hate it if that bit got out. I understand what you are saying, and you make a fair point. However, I doubt J.K. Rowling would escape similar vitriol if she had made promises like 22cans/PM had about being open etc, and then responded with months of silence, broken promises, missed deadlines, etc. I don't want to take away from the positives that have come from 22cans studios, but I don't think it takes that much of a stretch of the imagination to see why many of us are so disappointed with how we were lead to believe we would be somewhat a part of the development as backers... then 22cans shut off the spigot once it was funded.
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Post by rubgish on Aug 8, 2014 12:26:38 GMT
While I can agree and understand that you need to try things out, test them and maybe throw them away, what we would like to have is to hear about this.
I appreciate that you don't want to have expectation for something just to throw it away, because that could cause bad press and have people be disappointed that it's not in the final game. However, we are already disappointed that we don't get to see any of this stuff. So long as you guys are very clear when you tell us about what you are doing or looking at implementing then overall you're going to get a boosted responce from the community. So for example, you can say "We are testing out having settlements with tank-tracks so you can move them about like giant mobile siege engines and fight each other with cannons attached to your settlement. We aren't sure this is going to be in the final game, but we're going to test it out", and then we know that's what you guys are working on, so we're happy. If you then announce later on that it didn't fit with the aesthetic of the game and felt out of place, then i'm sure some people will be sad, but they won't think worse of 22cans as a result.
Basically the trust issue that we have with 22cans at the moment has arisen from a lack of transparency about what you guys have been doing, not from lack of stuff being delivered. We can all understand if stuff takes a lot longer than expected because of XYZ, but if (as has happened in the past), we just seem to hear nothing for a few months, then it's natural we will be concerned about what is going on.
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 8, 2014 12:35:52 GMT
We are testing out having settlements with tank-tracks so you can move them about like giant mobile siege engines and fight each other with cannons attached to your settlement. We aren't sure this is going to be in the final game, but we're going to test it out Right, I'm on that one right now. I want that feature in the game so bad. You are my new favourite designer.
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Post by rubgish on Aug 8, 2014 12:37:37 GMT
So long as it doesn't get in the way of the werezombiedinosharkswithlaserbeams i'm 100% behind your decision.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 8, 2014 12:43:29 GMT
Question for Raspofabs. Why don't you like object oriented design?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2014 12:53:39 GMT
Why is it so hard for 22cans to give even the slightest insight on planned features for the PC version or whether or not the two versions will drastically differ in the end? I'm going to be blunt here for a change: Why don't we tell you what features are coming next? Well, it's got something to do with how you make a great game vs expectation. Most of you don't believe in Godus as a great game, but we're still trying to follow the tenets of great game development, and one of those things is to kill your babies just like you do when writing. Also... I don't want to beat a dead horse here.. but I think your current/former PC fans are well aware that great features are often scrapped for a myriad of reasons during development. While there may be some disappointment among the community if you came forward and said "battle-tank riding dinosaur herders have been scrapped because xyz" I would suspect your more reasonable community members would be satisfied, and actually DEFEND you against the more trollish types. There are a few Steam Devs out there that are very open, and while there are disappointments from time to time, it's pretty obvious that they are "catching more flies with honey than vinegar."
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 8, 2014 13:08:55 GMT
Question for feanix. What is the thing you created for Godus that you are most proud of?
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Raspofabs
Former 22Cans staff
Posts: 227
I like: coding, high peat single malts, ... , yeah, that's about it.
I don't like: object oriented design, and liver.
Steam: raspofabs
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Post by Raspofabs on Aug 8, 2014 13:37:49 GMT
Question for Raspofabs. Why don't you like object oriented design? .. because it's a religious movement backed by unblinking sheep who never criticise their education or their leaders... I might be slightly biased. Also, I've watched it be the cause of games becoming "hard to modify" during development for over a decade. I also run this : www.dataorienteddesign.com
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 8, 2014 14:17:38 GMT
Data Orientation!
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 8, 2014 14:20:25 GMT
I might be slightly biased. Also, I've watched it be the cause of games becoming "hard to modify" during development for over a decade. I also run this : www.dataorienteddesign.comCould you perhaps go a little deeper into why it makes games hard to modify? Aren't there design patterns that are supposed to do exactly the opposite of that?
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 8, 2014 16:47:43 GMT
Now this is my current favorite topic thread. I almost want to leave work early just so I can dig in and participate. :/
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