|
|
Post by Monkeythumbz on May 20, 2014 13:15:38 GMT
I agree, people are allowed to argue from whatever position they like. If, however, you're doing so via the Steam forums, then you obviously need to adhere to the Steam forum rules. Can you quote which of the Steam forum rules were actually broken? I can see how 22Cans of Steam forum were broken but they differ a lot in certain key areas. i.e 'No petitions'. Sure, the rules linked to and listed out below. Rules & Tips for Steam Community: Contributing Positivity and Avoiding BansDo not post any of the following: Trolling, Griefing Flamebaiting, or intentionally disagreeing with others to cause an argument Rage posting (Example: "This game sucks, I demand a refund") Being intentionally unhelpful, providing wrong information (Also considered Trolling) Posting of non-constructive things/reviews (Example: "DO NOT BUY! Crap.") Demanding refunds Petition topics DO NOT POST IN ALL CAPS Naming and shaming of any kind Exposing supposed cheaters (Report them through Steam profiles or in-game reports) Criticizing others for having an opinion you disagree with No Backseat Moderating (Backseat moderating is when people who are not moderators try to enforce the forum rules.) |
|
splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149 
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
|
Post by splitterwind on May 20, 2014 13:16:59 GMT
Yes, post a complete list of all rules instead of beeing specific on WHICH ONE was actually broken.
None of you answers answers anything at all and I'm certain you know that very well.
|
|
|
|
Post by Qetesh on May 20, 2014 13:17:30 GMT
A good mod is like a good bartender, I have done both. You need to allow your patrons/posters to enjoy themselves but caretake for them enough so that nobody gets hurt.
You can't put out an inferno with a glass of water. Each time you try to squash people's emotions, you have seen them grow ten fold. People are pissed and want a place to discuss it. Let them have it. Create areas for the Negative feed back and Positive feedback. Move any negative threads to that area. This is a piece of cake for a Mod to do once you have defined this to the posters, most will follow the rules happily. It would be a sign of good faith, which you are lacking to many right now, and the actual negative feedback would gradually reduce.
There would be no reason for this to be offensive for those not wanting to hear the negative feedback, since they could avoid that area. Win, win George and you don't have to ban, lock or piss off another poster if you do this. Make yourself some sub categories and explain this to the posters and enforce that rule. It is bias and unfair to basically say you are more concerned about one POV of your gamers than the other. They all paid their pound of flesh and so they should have equal rights to state their opinions on both sides of the fence. Your mod should not even need to do anything other than moving a post from one sub forum (Positive Feedback) to the other (Negative Feedback) with a short notation of "post falls into category of subforum X"
|
|
|
|
Post by Monkeythumbz on May 20, 2014 13:20:41 GMT
Two questions: Why not warn people for the first time offense and why are some banned and others not that seemingly did the same thing? Also, what about other trolls like denny crane that are definitely bad for the atmosphere as well? 1. We did do warnings. Personally speaking, I think it had got to the point where people wouldn't take our warnings seriously any more, especially after I'd already quoted the rules on several occasions. 2. I don't get your issue with Denny Crane. He seems totally harmless. He's certainly not trying to stir up trouble, as far as I can tell. Nevertheless, I am keeping an eye on him and if he steps out of line, then action will be taken. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2014 13:21:57 GMT
Can you quote which of the Steam forum rules were actually broken? I can see how 22Cans of Steam forum were broken but they differ a lot in certain key areas. i.e 'No petitions'. Sure, the rules linked to and listed out below. Rules & Tips for Steam Community: Contributing Positivity and Avoiding BansDo not post any of the following: Trolling, Griefing Flamebaiting, or intentionally disagreeing with others to cause an argument Rage posting (Example: "This game sucks, I demand a refund") Being intentionally unhelpful, providing wrong information (Also considered Trolling) Posting of non-constructive things/reviews (Example: "DO NOT BUY! Crap.") Demanding refunds Petition topics DO NOT POST IN ALL CAPS Naming and shaming of any kind Exposing supposed cheaters (Report them through Steam profiles or in-game reports) Criticizing others for having an opinion you disagree with No Backseat Moderating (Backseat moderating is when people who are not moderators try to enforce the forum rules.) I see the ban wave coming over 22cans staff members.
|
|
splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
|
Post by splitterwind on May 20, 2014 13:24:16 GMT
How is it possible that you have no clue what I mean, you managed other communities before, right?
In other Communities people get warnings for their first time offenses before a ban is enrolled, not the complete community.
Usually measures increase - a warning, a more bold warning, 1 day ban, 3 days ban, 14 days ban, 30 days ban... On a individual basis.
|
|
|
|
Post by Monkeythumbz on May 20, 2014 13:24:29 GMT
A good mod is like a good bartender, I have done both. You need to allow your patrons/posters to enjoy themselves but caretake for them enough so that nobody gets hurt. You can't put out an inferno with a glass of water. Each time you try to squash people's emotions, you have seen them grow ten fold. People are pissed and want a place to discuss it. Let them have it. Create areas for the Negative feed back and Positive feedback. Move any negative threads to that area. This is a piece of cake for a Mod to do once you have defined this to the posters, most will follow the rules happily. It would be a singn of good faith, which you are lacking to many right now, and the actual negative feedback would gradually reduce. There would be no reason for this to be offensive for those not wanting to hear the negative feedback, since they could avoid that area. Win, win George and you don't have to ban, lock or piss off another poster if you do this. Make yourself some sub categories and explain this to the posters and enforce that rule. It is bias and unfair to basically say you are more concerned about one POV of your gamers than the other. They all paid their pound of flesh and so they should have equal rights to state their opinions on both sides of the fence. Your mod should not even need to do anything other than moving a post from one sub forum (Positive Feedback) to the other (Negative Feedback) with a short notation of "post falls into category of subforum X" Great post and I agree wholeheartedly. However my concern about moving threads into Positive and negative sub-forums would be that people could accuse us of stifling conversation, or that threads had been moved to the wrong sub-forum. It's subjtive in a way that the current subforums on Steam (Gameplay, UI, Bugs) aren't. People do have a place to discuss Godus without having to worry about Steam's rule - right here! It's not unreasonable for us to enforce the Steam rules on the Steam forum, though. |
|
|
|
Post by Crumpy Six on May 20, 2014 13:24:52 GMT
I don't actually understand some of those rules. For example, "trolling" is listed but I don't expect to see Denny Crane banned any time soon. How is trolling defined, anyway? Some people get accused of trolling for making a positive post about Godus (which is obviously wrong) but then everyone saying they don't like Godus could equally get accused of trolling. The "no trolling", "no flamebaiting" and "no posting of unconstructive things" basically gives mods carte blanche to take any actions they want. It's hardly objective.
"Criticizing others for having an opinion you disagree with"? Does this mean "no personal attacks"? Weird wording.
|
|
|
|
Post by julians on May 20, 2014 13:27:22 GMT
Oh, fine, it's Unwritten rules of online community from Steam
From Steam:
Within any online community there are a set of common sense rules that should always be followed. Typically they fall into multiple categories of the previous sets of rules.
Unwritten Rules
Do not post any of the following:
Trolling, Griefing
Flamebaiting, or intentionally disagreeing with others to cause an argument
Rage posting (Example: "This game sucks, I demand a refund")
Being intentionally unhelpful, providing wrong information (Also considered Trolling)
Posting of non-constructive things/reviews (Example: "DO NOT BUY! Crap.")
Demanding refunds
Petition topics
DO NOT POST IN ALL CAPS
Naming and shaming of any kind
Exposing supposed cheaters (Report them through Steam profiles or in-game reports)
Criticizing others for having an opinion you disagree with
Support Ticket or account related questions (Don't post personal account info)
VAC Bans are permanent: Do not ask to be unbanned
Somehow I find petitions and refund topics within a common sense of a forum dedicated to a particular game.
And as for Godus, "DO NOT BUY! Crap." is actually quite helpful review.
|
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on May 20, 2014 13:27:28 GMT
Can you imagine if I had actually locked this thread? Look at all these posts!  |
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on May 20, 2014 13:31:34 GMT
People do have a place to discuss Godus without having to worry about Steam's rule - right here! Indeed they do. And I can't thank you enough for your promotional efforts. So thank you again. |
|
|
|
Post by julians on May 20, 2014 13:33:41 GMT
Can you imagine if I had actually locked this thread? Look at all these posts! Well according to Unwritten Unofficial rules of BonkersLand: Ban shall befall anyone: Who uses 23 commas in a post. Types a post with his left hand. Questions validity of any of the rules. Thinks about hot dogs. Ever went to a bar. I think in the spirit of cooperation, and to foster a pleasant community you should lock all threads, ban us all, including yourself, and close the forum. I will send you an official twitter message later today. Maybe tomorrow. Friday the latest. |
|
|
|
Post by Monkeythumbz on May 20, 2014 13:33:57 GMT
As I said, I'm not interested in censorship. This forum provides a very valuable service.
|
|
|
|
Post by julians on May 20, 2014 13:35:28 GMT
People do have a place to discuss Godus without having to worry about Steam's rule - right here! Indeed they do. And I can't thank you enough for your promotional efforts. So thank you again. The problem as someone pointed out is that people who buy on Steam go to steam forums to see what other people think about the game. They won't come here. And I'd very much like people to be well informed before they spend money on Godus. |
|
|
|
Post by Monkeythumbz on May 20, 2014 13:35:44 GMT
Oh, fine, it's Unwritten rules of online community from Steam From Steam: Within any online community there are a set of common sense rules that should always be followed. Typically they fall into multiple categories of the previous sets of rules. Unwritten Rules Do not post any of the following: Trolling, Griefing Flamebaiting, or intentionally disagreeing with others to cause an argument Rage posting (Example: "This game sucks, I demand a refund") Being intentionally unhelpful, providing wrong information (Also considered Trolling) Posting of non-constructive things/reviews (Example: "DO NOT BUY! Crap.")
Demanding refunds
Petition topicsDO NOT POST IN ALL CAPS Naming and shaming of any kind Exposing supposed cheaters (Report them through Steam profiles or in-game reports) Criticizing others for having an opinion you disagree with Support Ticket or account related questions (Don't post personal account info) VAC Bans are permanent: Do not ask to be unbanned Somehow I find petitions and refund topics within a common sense of a forum dedicated to a particular game. And as for Godus, "DO NOT BUY! Crap." is actually quite helpful review. Anybody who doesn't like the rules of the Steam forum probably shouldn't post there. |
|
splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
|
Post by splitterwind on May 20, 2014 13:36:57 GMT
Posting of non-constructive things/reviews (Example: "DO NOT BUY! Crap.") In that case most people should be banned. Petition topicsDemanding refunds Why are some people that offended these unwritten rule banned and others not? It seems arbitrary. Also, doesn't "unwritten rules" imply that these are rather guidelines to behave polite instead of rules? Something that can easily be dealed with a warning and thread-lock? For example, I'm fairly certain that if I post constantly in all-Caps in another steam community board I would get a warning instead of a ban. These unwritten rules seem to be arbitrary punished. Also, I don't think that anyone would argue that Danny crane isn't a troll (even if hes harmless). At the one hand george pointed out on the steam board that he won't blindly follow rules on the other hand they are interpreted and punished in a very arbitrary way. (danny crane is a troll he finds symphatic, so he gets a pass. Someone opens a thread that acts as a flamebait, but its talking positive about Godus so at worst it gets locked, no ban). |
|
|
|
Post by Qetesh on May 20, 2014 13:39:26 GMT
A good mod is like a good bartender, I have done both. You need to allow your patrons/posters to enjoy themselves but caretake for them enough so that nobody gets hurt. You can't put out an inferno with a glass of water. Each time you try to squash people's emotions, you have seen them grow ten fold. People are pissed and want a place to discuss it. Let them have it. Create areas for the Negative feed back and Positive feedback. Move any negative threads to that area. This is a piece of cake for a Mod to do once you have defined this to the posters, most will follow the rules happily. It would be a singn of good faith, which you are lacking to many right now, and the actual negative feedback would gradually reduce. There would be no reason for this to be offensive for those not wanting to hear the negative feedback, since they could avoid that area. Win, win George and you don't have to ban, lock or piss off another poster if you do this. Make yourself some sub categories and explain this to the posters and enforce that rule. It is bias and unfair to basically say you are more concerned about one POV of your gamers than the other. They all paid their pound of flesh and so they should have equal rights to state their opinions on both sides of the fence. Your mod should not even need to do anything other than moving a post from one sub forum (Positive Feedback) to the other (Negative Feedback) with a short notation of "post falls into category of subforum X" Great post and I agree wholeheartedly. However my concern about moving threads into Positive and negative sub-forums would be that people could accuse us of stifling conversation, or that threads had been moved to the wrong sub-forum. It's subjtive in a way that the current subforums on Steam (Gameplay, UI, Bugs) aren't. People do have a place to discuss Godus without having to worry about Steam's rule - right here! It's not unreasonable for us to enforce the Steam rules on the Steam forum, though. Sure and we have shown that both PoV can exist side by side here. They could on Steam too, but you can say that you are afraid of the flack of the sub category but how about the flack you are getting for enforcing those rules, which are somewhat vague in some instances, and banning people and locking threads? You are between a rock and hard place so I would choose the lesser of two evils if I were in your shoes and for me, that is the sub categories. Banning and locking threads is much more likely to cause you to continue to go through this strife than creating an outlet for Negative Feedback. One is squashing posters opinions and the other is protecting that little old lady at the end of the bar from the bikers hooting it up. Does not the bikers have a right to enjoy their environment just as much as the little old lady? They pay their bar tabs too. You are basically taking the money for their beer and then flagging them and kicking them out, so the little old lady can drink her beer in quiet. It rings very unfair to those bikers, does it not? Now how about having two areas in your bar where you can choose to seat in quiet happy land or loud noisy land, put up a disclaimer to go in at your own risk and all fault lies on the patron/poster. Sure, you might hear a bitch here and there from some Bikers put back into Nosiy land, but fairness would fall on your side as long as your Mod follows set guidelines that you have explained clearly to your posters in advance. The backlash should be a fraction of what you are getting today. I am big on analogies because I feel they help to clearly define what points of discussion I am trying to make. I don't really think the posters are little old ladies or bikers in the above scenario. LOL. |
|
splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
|
Post by splitterwind on May 20, 2014 13:40:02 GMT
Anybody who doesn't like the rules of the Steam forum probably shouldn't post there. I'm actually fine with them. I'm skeptical about the enforcement (bans instead of individual warnings) and the arbitrary interpretation (danny crane, flamebaits). I was never upset about the moderation of other boards on steam. |
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on May 20, 2014 13:49:07 GMT
Sure, you might hear a bitch here and there from some Bikers put back into Nosiy land I think you are being very discriminative of bikers. Shame on you. What if a biker wants some peace and quiet because he has a hangover or for some other reason huh?  I don't really think the posters are little old ladies For a second there I thought you were talking from your own perspective.  |
|
|
|
Post by Crumpy Six on May 20, 2014 13:54:23 GMT
Bottom line is that being stricter with rule enforcement doesn't seem to have solved everything, it's just shaken the hornet nest.
I think it's a shame that some players don't feel like they can participate in discussion on the Steam forum, but the atmosphere is a result of the anger of the fans, and the anger of the fans was caused by 22Cans failing on multiple levels. Once in a while a well-intentioned person will turn up and say "hey guys, it's not finished and it's still in Early Access" (much like George did when he first joined the team) and have no concept of the fact that this excuse has gone through the wringer repeatedly over the last 6 months.
22Cans needs to take some proper measures to solve the root of the problem, instead of resorting to gagging people to make the situation look less dire.
|
|
