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Post by Deth on Aug 6, 2015 16:56:09 GMT
*Looks in his closet. Checks the point of his pitchfork and the Tar on the torch.* Yeap still there.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 6, 2015 17:23:05 GMT
How to PR a Kickstarted game; see The Universim, Armello, Pillars of Eternity, Underworld Ascension, Starr Mazer, Thimbleweed Park...
22Cans has, on occasion, engaged the community and shared development progress (and failures, alike) fairly well. They are capable of it - which is part of why the community frustration from the frequent (near predictable) fumbling and silence and hypocracy results in the persistent backlash that occurs.
Do more, do it better. We know its possible.
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Post by greay on Aug 6, 2015 18:14:46 GMT
How to PR a Kickstarted game; see The Universim, Armello, Pillars of Eternity, Underworld Ascension, Starr Mazer, Thimbleweed Park... 22Cans has, on occasion, engaged the community and shared development progress (and failures, alike) fairly well. They are capable of it - which is part of why the community frustration from the frequent (near predictable) fumbling and silence and hypocracy results in the persistent backlash that occurs. Do more, do it better. We know its possible. Something to note: for those games that I'm familiar with in that list (and correct me if this isn't true of the others), a clear plan for the game was shared, and the community was able to have a good grasp on what the finished product would look like. Things might change, and some things might not make the final cut, but all this was shared & people knew what to expect. We could see the vision. Contrast this with Godus (I'm trying to focus on the positive, but I feel some constructive criticism is in order): Major things were changed, very early in development, causing most of the community to question their idea of the finished product. And with little to no plan shared ("1: combat; 2: " is not a plan), we don't really know what to expect. As far as a decent chunk of the community's concerned, there is no vision for Godus anymore. It should also be noted: a plan doesn't need to be a timeline. I know the last (only?) time a roadmap was shared, it completely scrapped before even the first thing was finished. That might be a little extreme, but things change. That's fine. A bucket of planned features with enough details that the community can discuss them and add feedback is just as good. And this can be updated easily, without throwing a proposed timeline out-of-whack. I'm sure other people can share ones they've seen, but here's the aforementioned Crea's Roadmap. That's in addition to more, deeper engagement on other features.
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 7, 2015 20:02:55 GMT
Lord Ba'al basically answered it. This forum has undergone a change, and the timing seemed right to try. I don't want to burst your bubble, but no, we really are still the same. We are and always have been a non bias environment. I will PM you since I don't wish to derail your thread.
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Post by Aynen on Aug 7, 2015 20:27:33 GMT
How to PR a Kickstarted game; see The Universim, Armello, Pillars of Eternity, Underworld Ascension, Starr Mazer, Thimbleweed Park... 22Cans has, on occasion, engaged the community and shared development progress (and failures, alike) fairly well. They are capable of it - which is part of why the community frustration from the frequent (near predictable) fumbling and silence and hypocracy results in the persistent backlash that occurs. Do more, do it better. We know its possible. Something to note: for those games that I'm familiar with in that list (and correct me if this isn't true of the others), a clear plan for the game was shared, and the community was able to have a good grasp on what the finished product would look like. Things might change, and some things might not make the final cut, but all this was shared & people knew what to expect. We could see the vision. Contrast this with Godus (I'm trying to focus on the positive, but I feel some constructive criticism is in order): Major things were changed, very early in development, causing most of the community to question their idea of the finished product. And with little to no plan shared ("1: combat; 2: " is not a plan), we don't really know what to expect. As far as a decent chunk of the community's concerned, there is no vision for Godus anymore. It should also be noted: a plan doesn't need to be a timeline. I know the last (only?) time a roadmap was shared, it completely scrapped before even the first thing was finished. That might be a little extreme, but things change. That's fine. A bucket of planned features with enough details that the community can discuss them and add feedback is just as good. And this can be updated easily, without throwing a proposed timeline out-of-whack. I'm sure other people can share ones they've seen, but here's the aforementioned Crea's Roadmap. That's in addition to more, deeper engagement on other features. For me, this issue creates a real conundrum. On the one hand, we've all experienced how much of a disappointment it can be to get hyped about one thing, and then to see something else happen. And on the other hand, I WANT Peter to be able to improvise and not be bogged down with previous aims for his games because a lot of his best design choices also happened in this fashion where he solved a problem by changing what he set out to do in the first place. (The most famous example being that in populous, he set out to do pathfinding AI, but instead made deformable terrain) If he would get to stick to such level of freedom in problem solving, then any project he's on becomes very inpredictable. On the one hand, he could choose to just not talk about the game then before it's nearly done, but this makes community building, PR and moderating much more difficult; people who are left in the dark tend to also be dissatisfied. On the other hand, he could talk about stuff, knowing it could change. But even if everyone is on the same page about how inpredictable his process is, hearing him come up with something you really want to see, and then to not see it happen, is disappointing still. This too is just about equally difficult from a moderating/PR perspective. Can an extremely unpredictable design process result in successfull PR in any way? If not, is that worse than not letting Peter design in his own way? Do note that I'm separating his design methods from the way he talks about his game. The two are different things that can result in intertwining problems, for sure, but they are two different things.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 7, 2015 22:43:21 GMT
I think what a lot of it comes down to (the culmination of the last several years experienced thus far, what we can certainly glean from this), is that the type of methods of PR, development interaction, and the more involved community cooperation people have become accustomed to with Alpha/Beta testing, Early Access titles, and more recently open-access crowdfunded titles, are not indicatively supportive of Peter's particular style or methodology (if it could be classified as that) process - which is being so... flexible or pliable, as it is - and that has been a huge factor in the overall experience. The two didn't mesh well without someone more experienced, or perhaps with more business credence, to mediate and mitigate.
Perhaps it could have worked better, with a more satisfactory result on both sides, if this had been more evident early in the project and addressed. It's unfortunate we'll never really know for certain.
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 7, 2015 23:38:43 GMT
On the one hand, he could choose to just not talk about the game then before it's nearly done, but this makes community building, PR and moderating much more difficult; people who are left in the dark tend to also be dissatisfied. On the other hand, he could talk about stuff, knowing it could change. But even if everyone is on the same page about how inpredictable his process is, hearing him come up with something you really want to see, and then to not see it happen, is disappointing still. This too is just about equally difficult from a moderating/PR perspective. Bullshit. 1. Not talking about the game (which 22Cans repeatedly did when they didn't want a lot of baseless hype for whatever reasons) is a clear and factual violation of the contract. It's a backer reward unfulfilled in itself. And this one cannot be fulfilled in "fullness of time", it's supposed to be fulfilled constantly and regularly during the development process. 2. Any changes with cut out content are welcomed by the communities as long as the changes are not the cancellation of backer rewards explicitly specified in the contract (it's fraud otherwise) and the reason for the change is explained at all.
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Post by Aynen on Aug 8, 2015 7:45:01 GMT
On the one hand, he could choose to just not talk about the game then before it's nearly done, but this makes community building, PR and moderating much more difficult; people who are left in the dark tend to also be dissatisfied. On the other hand, he could talk about stuff, knowing it could change. But even if everyone is on the same page about how inpredictable his process is, hearing him come up with something you really want to see, and then to not see it happen, is disappointing still. This too is just about equally difficult from a moderating/PR perspective. Bullshit. 1. Not talking about the game (which 22Cans repeatedly did when they didn't want a lot of baseless hype for whatever reasons) is a clear and factual violation of the contract. It's a backer reward unfulfilled in itself. And this one cannot be fulfilled in "fullness of time", it's supposed to be fulfilled constantly and regularly during the development process. 2. Any changes with cut out content are welcomed by the communities as long as the changes are not the cancellation of backer rewards explicitly specified in the contract (it's fraud otherwise) and the reason for the change is explained at all. It certainly seems the case that Peter's work methods are a bad match for making promises beforehand. That much seems clear to everyone (him included). If he hadn't made any during the kickstarter campain, just said: "I'm going to make a game", would people have still backed him though?
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Roumsen
Master
Look behind you, a Three-Headed Monkey!
Posts: 157
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Post by Roumsen on Aug 8, 2015 8:07:04 GMT
As someone who is working in the service industry, I have to say that this is not good PR. If I promise a customer to make a bathroom but in the end it's going to be a kitchen, the customer may indeed appreciate the kitchen, but still has no bathroom. Sorry Aynen, but I don't think you're doing yourself any favors mentioning that...
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Post by greay on Aug 8, 2015 8:16:00 GMT
Bullshit. 1. Not talking about the game (which 22Cans repeatedly did when they didn't want a lot of baseless hype for whatever reasons) is a clear and factual violation of the contract. It's a backer reward unfulfilled in itself. And this one cannot be fulfilled in "fullness of time", it's supposed to be fulfilled constantly and regularly during the development process. 2. Any changes with cut out content are welcomed by the communities as long as the changes are not the cancellation of backer rewards explicitly specified in the contract (it's fraud otherwise) and the reason for the change is explained at all. It certainly seems the case that Peter's work methods are a bad match for making promises beforehand. That much seems clear to everyone (him included). If he hadn't made any during the kickstarter campain, just said: "I'm going to make a game", would people have still backed him though? There's a couple of issues at play here. One, PM usually gets called out when he makes promises beforehand; claiming things will happen as if they're fact (usually implying or outright saying that the feature he's talking about is either done or just nearly finished). After release, it turns out that not only did those features not make it in, but they weren't cut to make a better game. They were cut for budgetary or technical reasons. Because of how he spun it, people are usually (understandably) upset. They're almost always major things that are flat-out missing, not things that got changed for the better. The example morsealworth gives is of an entirely different nature. It's questioning an assumption, and proposing a change in order to make a better game. On top of that, there's a conversation about why.The other difference is the Kickstarter. Pie-in-the-sky things said to the press while working on a game are one thing. The world has come to expect that from PM. It's almost endearing. With Kickstarter there are contractual obligations involved. And this: Sure, things change during development. Sometimes your initial ideas aren't gonna work, for whatever reason. Talk to the people you promised would be involved, and payed you for it. Let them know what needs to change, and why. But that (almost) never happened with Godus. How in the world do you reconcile the months of silence with "a culture of openness, co-operation and honesty" that was promised? Was there ever a point in Godus's development where we were "able to suggest, comment and vote to determine [any] elements of the game"?
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Post by greay on Aug 8, 2015 8:19:02 GMT
Sorry, I know this was supposed to be talking about examples of good PR.
You know what would be a really good way to handle PR? Do those things 22cans said in the Kickstarter.
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Post by Aynen on Aug 8, 2015 8:26:15 GMT
As someone who is working in the service industry, I have to say that this is not good PR. If I promise a customer to make a bathroom but in the end it's going to be a kitchen, the customer may indeed appreciate the kitchen, but still has no bathroom. Sorry Aynen, but I don't think you're doing yourself any favors mentioning that... Peter has already said himself in interviews what he feels about how Kickstarter promises influence him. It's no secret. If anything, pretending he hadn't said it would be a poor PR decision, as over here on Proboards, it wouldn't be fooling anybody. Funny you should use a kitchen as an example though, he did the exact same thing if I recall correctly.
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Post by militairensneuvelen on Aug 8, 2015 8:30:53 GMT
Is your personal reputation so tainted that you have to show up here and try to make you look more positive (people know you on the web right?)? Never mind, rhetorical question... You moderators have done the same for yourself as what 22cans did for them.
Don't bother.
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Roumsen
Master
Look behind you, a Three-Headed Monkey!
Posts: 157
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Post by Roumsen on Aug 8, 2015 8:45:33 GMT
Sorry Aynen, but I don't think you're doing yourself any favors mentioning that... Peter has already said himself in interviews what he feels about how Kickstarter promises influence him. It's no secret. If anything, pretending he hadn't said it would be a poor PR decision, as over here on Proboards, it wouldn't be fooling anybody. Funny you should use a kitchen as an example though, he did the exact same thing if I recall correctly. Yeah? Nice coincidence. Well, as I said, I work in that industry. But what I actually wanted to say is, that YOU started this topic, that YOU made that statement, irrespective of if Peter said so somewhere or not, in the end the people here will look at YOU. Also, it's about doing good PR isn't it?!
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 8, 2015 10:50:41 GMT
Bullshit. 1. Not talking about the game (which 22Cans repeatedly did when they didn't want a lot of baseless hype for whatever reasons) is a clear and factual violation of the contract. It's a backer reward unfulfilled in itself. And this one cannot be fulfilled in "fullness of time", it's supposed to be fulfilled constantly and regularly during the development process. 2. Any changes with cut out content are welcomed by the communities as long as the changes are not the cancellation of backer rewards explicitly specified in the contract (it's fraud otherwise) and the reason for the change is explained at all. It certainly seems the case that Peter's work methods are a bad match for making promises beforehand. That much seems clear to everyone (him included). If he hadn't made any during the kickstarter campain, just said: "I'm going to make a game", would people have still backed him though? You see, the problem is, you don't go to Kickstarter without any plan. You have to at least have a business plan and share this business plan with your potential investors. That's the very idea of Kickstarter in the first place. The only difference between Kickstarter business plan and dividend-based business plan is that the main aspect of the plan is the product, not the profits. And that, again, is the very reason Kickstarter was created. If you're not going to do at least that and then stick to the business plan, you're not supposed to come to Kickstarter to ask for money in the first place. So good PR would be in the form of making a business plan about the product, sharing the plan with the backers, and then sticking to the plan you're legally obligated to stick to by investment contract. Or never to go to Kickstarter in the first place. Just two possible options. Simple, right?
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 8, 2015 11:29:53 GMT
I can give an example of good PR.
I used to run a small company. I decided to do an event for networking and charity. I made up a cool catch name and an email blast and paper brochures for a new annual "Pick a Charity" Party. I did it mostly on my off time. I had each person who came bring a check for "at least 25 dollars" to a charity of their choice. I talked a large local nice restaurant owner into a half price off my room rental. I went to Kinkos and made of ton of my business related give always, all with our logo on it. I got a friend to donate their time and DJ and had a nice turnout for a few years. I made a few speeches and had them do a raffle for one nice gift each year and a few games. I kept it very lively.
I was able to have nothing but positive Twitter and FaceBook comments and got several more doctors and contacts I wanted and have a decent chunk of cash sent to many needy charities. I took pictures of each check and mailed with receipt to each person for their taxes. I was also able to take legitimate tax write off on my costs for the party's food and drink bills.
So, in end I had to front some cash out of pocket but for my company's PR, it was a huge success. Not only was it great for charity, I had all my contacts associating my business with fun and good positive actions.
I could suggest to Colin that 22cans should do something similar and pick a way to associate their name with positive actions like charity or the environment. Good PR is not always about what your business actually does for a living, just about representing your business in public eyes in best possible light.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 8, 2015 11:39:14 GMT
Any such actions on behalf of 22cans would not have any positive results among backers if the concerns of the backers are not adressed first.
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Post by morsealworth on Aug 8, 2015 11:41:01 GMT
A small note, however, that it only affects businesses that already have at least a neutral reputation. Otherwise, the contrast only raises bigotry concerns. UPD: Lord Ba'al got before me.
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Post by Qetesh on Aug 8, 2015 11:46:46 GMT
Any such actions on behalf of 22cans would not have any positive results among backers if the concerns of the backers are not adressed first. Sure, but we are but a fraction of their wanted demographics. It might sound like playing dirty but do you really think Exxon is forgiven by anyone affected directly by their spill? Sad truth is, aside from them most others don't care anymore and every charitable thing Exxon does is positively appreciated. I didn't say it was right, just an example of How to do Good PR.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 8, 2015 11:48:33 GMT
It could reap positive results for them though with non-backers.
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