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Post by morsealworth on Jul 28, 2014 14:43:44 GMT
NOTE FROM Lord Ba'al: Thread split from topic Collecting lies, promises, unanswered questions, misleadingI do find the stamina versus birthrate changing from who "stays at home" antiquated and beyond sexist. In today's world you can do it with house wives or house husband and/or both working and it does not affect anyone's stamina or the rate of having children. For the record PM..........Sex affects birthrate and that has nothing to do with who is "staying at home" as long as the man and women are fraking like rabbits at the end of their days. Stamina is mainly affected by what you eat, how you work out and genetics, this is just a stupid suggestion to say if a women is bread winner this is more or less stamina. Somebody is putting their foot in their mouth again on this one. Welcome to 2014, we don't like stupid stereotypes. Women genetically have more stamina due to purely histological differences in distribution of fat and ATP efficiency of destruction of said fat. Yes, that does mean that women are fatter than men of the same constitution in general if they stop always thinking about their weight and stop using horrible, inhumane measures to stay slim. It is due to effect of estrogen which tend to conserve more energy for the sake of pregnancy when gathering would become much more difficult. Men, on the other hand, generally have more muscle tissue, better quality of that tissue and better innervation of it. That is due to anabolic effect of testosterone which prepares man for explosive use of brute force in times of hunting. Yes, men are more muscular for the sake of killing someone with less strikes than average (and because of such difference, women are below average except some unpleasant exceptions which simply stop ovulating after a while due to hormonal problems). If that is the case, I guess he does not care about selling the game to many intelligent females. I am sorry to say that intelligent women are minority. Problem is, women are unique creatures who have the luxury of being able to use both logic and basic, fast, unreliable heuristic thinking at the same time. Which is why most women just get satisfied with results of heuristic, emotional, irrational thinking and don't let logical line of thought finish, thus not using the logical part and considering it a waste of time and resources. I am prepared to be insulted if you deem it required. Yet bear in mind that if you do feel such necessity, it's the irrational part I'm talking about. So please, don't stop your thoughts about the idea as you may gain much more from it than simple unpleasant impression. I hope (alas, I did not have a pleasure of conversing personally with anyone here) you are one part of said minority, after all.
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jul 28, 2014 15:21:01 GMT
I am sorry to say that intelligent women are minority. Intelligent people are the minority, gender notwithstanding. By definition, most people are 'average'. And a slew of folk are dumb.
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Post by rubgish on Jul 28, 2014 15:38:07 GMT
I do find the stamina versus birthrate changing from who "stays at home" antiquated and beyond sexist. In today's world you can do it with house wives or house husband and/or both working and it does not affect anyone's stamina or the rate of having children. For the record PM..........Sex affects birthrate and that has nothing to do with who is "staying at home" as long as the man and women are fraking like rabbits at the end of their days. Stamina is mainly affected by what you eat, how you work out and genetics, this is just a stupid suggestion to say if a women is bread winner this is more or less stamina. Somebody is putting their foot in their mouth again on this one. Welcome to 2014, we don't like stupid stereotypes. Women genetically have more stamina due to purely histological differences in distribution of fat and ATP efficiency of destruction of said fat. Yes, that does mean that women are fatter than men of the same constitution in general if they stop always thinking about their weight and stop using horrible, inhumane measures to stay slim. It is due to effect of estrogen which tend to conserve more energy for the sake of pregnancy when gathering would become much more difficult. Men, on the other hand, generally have more muscle tissue, better quality of that tissue and better innervation of it. That is due to anabolic effect of testosterone which prepares man for explosive use of brute force in times of hunting. Yes, men are more muscular for the sake of killing someone with less strikes than average (and because of such difference, women are below average except some unpleasant exceptions which simply stop ovulating after a while due to hormonal problems). If that is the case, I guess he does not care about selling the game to many intelligent females. I am sorry to say that intelligent women are minority. Problem is, women are unique creatures who have the luxury of being able to use both logic and basic, fast, unreliable heuristic thinking at the same time. Which is why most women just get satisfied with results of heuristic, emotional, irrational thinking and don't let logical line of thought finish, thus not using the logical part and considering it a waste of time and resources. I am prepared to be insulted if you deem it required. Yet bear in mind that if you do feel such necessity, it's the irrational part I'm talking about. So please, don't stop your thoughts about the idea as you may gain much more from it than simple unpleasant impression. I hope (alas, I did not have a pleasure of conversing personally with anyone here) you are one part of said minority, after all. Hi, I feel the need to insult you because you are talking utter sexist bullshit.
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 28, 2014 18:04:58 GMT
This is not sexism. This is sexual dimorphism. When I say that negroid race has better immunity to diseases due to their ancestors living in equatorial zones overflowing with microorganisms and thus they still have genetically solidified immune system that is superior to any other race, it isn't racism, it's anthropology. Why would you call facts proven experimentally sexist? Sexism would be denial of those differences and asking of woman to become a man or vice versa. Both cannot be each other due to difference in activity in basal ganglia, especially in corpus amygdaloideum (men have them much bigger and much more functional for the sake of understanding aggression, limiting it and building hierarchy while women have no hierarchy except comparing beauty - attractiveness to men and their men themselves; also this ganglia makes us understand responsibility differently, which I have already told somewhere) and corpus callosum (which has totally different characteristic of connection between hemispheres, mainly by difference in formation of the different parts of brain responsible for different activities, where females mostly have respective centers in both hemispheres working together and observing any problem from two aforementioned ways of thinking and thus having superiority in spatial problems and most common everyday occurrences that can be solved by heuristics, and men connecting one parts of brain to different parts performing different functions to use associative power to find any clues of how to solve the problem; the most referred brain part, by the way, is secondary visual cortex), and also some cortical structure, namely gyrus cinguli as it is much more active in women due to the differences in work of corpus callosum described above. I am sorry to say that intelligent women are minority. Intelligent people are the minority, gender notwithstanding. By definition, most people are 'average'. And a slew of folk are dumb. Absolutely fair point. Of course, if you still want to insult me, go ahead. It would simply mean you couldn't bring yourself to try and verify my arguments or even read them. Not my fault, not yours. Maybe your genetics', but no one is at fault as this one, too.
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Post by Qetesh on Jul 28, 2014 18:21:42 GMT
It's offensive, but you are entitled to your male opinion about us women.
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 28, 2014 18:22:54 GMT
I apologize for being regarded as offensive as I have no intention to from very beginning.
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Post by Qetesh on Jul 28, 2014 18:34:21 GMT
I happen to know a ton of very intelligent women. I ran a business for years and my neighbor is second in charge of the company that supplies all the produce to every single Walmart in the world among other things. There are female doctors, chemists, lawyers, professors and CEOs. I suggest you take a look at LinkdIn if you don't believe me.
Whether a man or a women stays home does not affect our genetic make-up or how much we frak around to make those babies. That's why it is offensive.
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 28, 2014 19:02:59 GMT
I does. As people who will not do it right will not let their offspring survive and/or reproduce due to either physical or psychological traumas rendering them useless in society. This is how men get filtered every day, you know? Of course, when we talk about society, we get much more additional factors including upbringing and finances.
And of course, being a good professional and being intelligent is not always the same thing. It isn't even often the same thing, as skill is not experience is not knowledge. The may overlap and may not.
And I forgot to define the intelligence I mean ability to create causal associations, making them complex and deep, and apply these associations to the problems.
Most humans (I don't even mention women, even thought vast majority of them is includes as well) do no ever use this heavy, slow, resource-demanding apparatus of association, logic and reasoning. Normal people don't have a habit of asking themselves "What the hell am I doing and why?". They just look at the problem and automatically, without even involving their consciousness, do the thing they see fit the most to solve the problem. It's called "field behaviour". All good professionals, except scientists, do that. Wh? Because that's faster and cheaper with result being the same in most cases.
That's why majority of people are not intelligent: there is next to no need for intelligence in everyday life. The only acts that required intelligence except science were navigation (after a hunt, either successful or not) back homwe and the act of hunting, killing, murdering someone. It's only later we first required priests to tell us when do we start and end working in the fields, etc. And only priests were doing that, and no one more. Fun fact: despite daughters of pharaohs having pompous titles about being married to gods, no woman has ever set a foot into a temple during the time of Egyptian supremacy. They were not welcome by the gods as they were too down to earth, too practical.
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Post by Qetesh on Jul 28, 2014 19:31:44 GMT
I have been "at home" and I have been "at work" neither one changed who I was, what babies I made or my genetic makeup. You use a lot of big intelligent words but ironically they are not in the slightest bit convincing. This is not about "who will do it" this is about whether it is a man or woman doing it having any meaning to their birthrate or their stamina. Whether my partner works or I work, it won't change how many kids we have. There is no assumed traumas that occur due to one or the other working and this is about birthrate only not about mortality rates.
I don't filter any man for working or not anymore than I filter any women for not working. I think that when a couple makes the decision to have one of them be a stay at home parent that is their business and their choice and they should do whatever is best for that couple. I don't think it will change how many babies they have or their stamina in the slightest bit.
Now, if no one works because their is no work to be found then both will go hungry, get frail and lose stamina and not be as able to make babies. As long as someone is putting food on the table it does not matter who is doing it. Male or Female or both.
I completely disagree. One cannot do the professions I mentioned without intelligence. One cannot even graduate college, med school, law school etc. without intelligence either.
Also, From Webster's Dictionary:
in·tel·li·gence noun \in-ˈte-lə-jən(t)s\ : the ability to learn or understand things or to deal with new or difficult situations
This is what intelligence means. You cannot change the meaning of the word by stating so, it means this. Perhaps you can now see what it is so offensive to hear that women are rarely intelligent.
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Post by rubgish on Jul 28, 2014 22:08:25 GMT
This is not sexism. This is sexual dimorphism. When I say that negroid race has better immunity to diseases due to their ancestors living in equatorial zones overflowing with microorganisms and thus they still have genetically solidified immune system that is superior to any other race, it isn't racism, it's anthropology. Why would you call facts proven experimentally sexist? Sexism would be denial of those differences and asking of woman to become a man or vice versa. Both cannot be each other due to difference in activity in basal ganglia, especially in corpus amygdaloideum (men have them much bigger and much more functional for the sake of understanding aggression, limiting it and building hierarchy while women have no hierarchy except comparing beauty - attractiveness to men and their men themselves; also this ganglia makes us understand responsibility differently, which I have already told somewhere) and corpus callosum (which has totally different characteristic of connection between hemispheres, mainly by difference in formation of the different parts of brain responsible for different activities, where females mostly have respective centers in both hemispheres working together and observing any problem from two aforementioned ways of thinking and thus having superiority in spatial problems and most common everyday occurrences that can be solved by heuristics, and men connecting one parts of brain to different parts performing different functions to use associative power to find any clues of how to solve the problem; the most referred brain part, by the way, is secondary visual cortex), and also some cortical structure, namely gyrus cinguli as it is much more active in women due to the differences in work of corpus callosum described above. Intelligent people are the minority, gender notwithstanding. By definition, most people are 'average'. And a slew of folk are dumb. Absolutely fair point. Of course, if you still want to insult me, go ahead. It would simply mean you couldn't bring yourself to try and verify my arguments or even read them. Not my fault, not yours. Maybe your genetics', but no one is at fault as this one, too. The facts aren't sexist because facts are facts, they don't have human qualities. Also, you are not offering facts to us here. You are offering anatomical facts and then applying your own views to the facts, for example "generally have more muscle tissue, better quality of that tissue and better innervation of it. That is due to anabolic effect of testosterone which prepares man for explosive use of brute force in times of hunting. Yes, men are more muscular for the sake of killing someone with less strikes than average" The fact part of this: Men generally have more muscle tissue (partially due to the increased testosterone levels, there are other reasons too). The opinion part of this: This prepares man for explosive use of brute force in times of hunting, for the sake of killing someone with less strikes than average. There is no evidence that the increased strength of males is for use in hunting, nor that it is for killing people. If we take the animal kingdom as an example, it's far more likely that the only reason for increased male strength is to physically compete with each other to try and impress a mate. Now if we take almost any society that we know about through the whole of recorded history (if you find a counter-example, i'd be interested to read about it as I know of none), males no longer have to physically compete against each other for mating rights, thus males increased physical strength is a biological throwback that we now use for a totally different purpose. On to the sexism part: Regardless of any average attribute of a given gender, if you don't provide equal opportunities for them because of their gender you are being sexist. So it's pretty clear from above that is why you are being sexist. I anticipate that you might disagree that what you think amounts to sexism, because it's not unequal to treat people differently because they have different attributes. But this is not correct, because you are still treating an individual by an average, which removes their agency completely from your decision [for an example of this, you may say "only men can be firefighters because they need them to be X strong and women are way less likely to have X strength than men are", then while it is maybe true that people who have X strength are at a ratio of 1000:1 male:female, you should still allow females to be firefighters so long as they are X strong, otherwise you are being sexist.]
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Casinha
Master
Posts: 217
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Post by Casinha on Jul 29, 2014 9:03:00 GMT
"Regardless of any average attribute of a given gender, if you don't provide equal opportunities for them because of their gender you are being sexist."
"So it's pretty clear from above that is why you are being sexist."
From your definition of the sexist part, that would not make him sexist. I don't recall (I may have missed something as my eyes got blurred with all the body part mumbo jumbo) him saying that women shouldn't be given the same opportunities as men, just that in certain aspects the average woman wouldn't be as capable due to biological make up. Many women can and have worked hard (and some haven't needed to work as hard as it came to them naturally) to overcome these differences as Qetesh has already noted, but that doesn't mean those differences weren't there at the beginning.
Edit: Weird quoting weirdness
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 29, 2014 14:39:17 GMT
It's offensive, but you are entitled to your male opinion about us women. Scientific certainties and observations about genetic factors that affect personality and propensity towards certain aspects aren't exactly synonymous or congruous with opinion; that's just reality. It's tough to separate the two sometimes because we allow emotion and civility to override logic; and that's kind of what morealsworth is getting at. It's clearly not an attempt at sexism when you remove emotive response, as (he?) makes statements about gender and race that are observable and can be reproduced in scientific method. There are always exceptions to the rule because of environmental factors, intellectual and emotional education, our amazing abilities to adapt and override our innate genetic instinct. Of course, he does sort of invalidate some of his statements by poisoning them with a bit of bias.
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Post by Qetesh on Jul 29, 2014 15:22:22 GMT
It's offensive, but you are entitled to your male opinion about us women. Scientific certainties and observations about genetic factors that affect personality and propensity towards certain aspects aren't exactly synonymous or congruous with opinion; that's just reality. It's tough to separate the two sometimes because we allow emotion and civility to override logic; and that's kind of what morealsworth is getting at. It's clearly not an attempt at sexism when you remove emotive response, as (he?) makes statements about gender and race that are observable and can be reproduced in scientific method. There are always exceptions to the rule because of environmental factors, intellectual and emotional education, our amazing abilities to adapt and override our innate genetic instinct. Of course, he does sort of invalidate some of his statements by poisoning them with a bit of bias. What is offensive is the idea that the person who stays at home would have any influence on any genetic make-up or how many babies they would be having. The logic behind that idea is sexist. The type of pee pee parts I have, in no way is related to if I stay home or not, this kind of thinking is why at one point were not allowed to vote and work since we were "not smart enough" to handle such things. The same can be said of what was done in the past to the races around the globe. I never stated we were not genetically different, but one is not innately more intelligent than the other. The comment about women rarely being intelligent is quite offensive. You can point out a 10 studies done by men saying women are more irrational and I could find just as many by women to debunk it. Different races are genetically different too, but are you going to try to tell me that one is innately smarter than the others because if anyone does then they might wish to take a look in a mirror and say hello to a bigot. I am not calling you one but this whole point of argument is walking a fine line to prejudice under a veil of science.
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 29, 2014 15:34:45 GMT
if you don't provide equal opportunities for them because of their gender you are being sexist. So it's pretty clear from above that is why you are being sexist. When and where did I not provide equal opportunities for men and women? It is history and evolution that didn't, and I never said that it changes anything for us. Though I do say that if you demand the same intelligence from both sexes, you would be unfair to both. One of main problems in modern education is that girls' nervous system grows during and after the growth spurt is delayed compared to boys' by about one year, so putting girls and boys of the same age through the same classes would either no give girls the time to properly understand the meaning of processes described and will force them to just memorize the whole thing without understanding, or will give boys not enough stimuli for their prefrontal associative cortex, delaying their growth, or even both. As such, doing so will be NOT providing the same opportunity to both sexes. Now if we DO provide the result required by making separate math programs for different sexes by changing ages of teaching, we would be called sexist instead, contradicting your definition entirely.
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Post by Qetesh on Jul 29, 2014 15:50:49 GMT
I aced my math classes in school and won a National English Merit Award in junior high. I managed to score quite well on my SATs too.
I am done with this discussion because nothing you are saying is not offensive in some ways. You are again trying to hide behind science while stating extremely sexist remarks. My nervous system had nothing to do with my ability to handle my classes or function as any of the boys in my school at least half of our students in my honours classes were in fact female.
This would be like me saying, you guys were too busy having wet dreams to think clearly in school the next day. One thing has nothing to do with the other but can be used to try to explain away sexism.
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 29, 2014 16:30:20 GMT
I aced my math classes in school and won a National English Merit Award in junior high. I managed to score quite well on my SATs too. I am done with this discussion because nothing you are saying is not offensive in some ways. You are again trying to hide behind science while stating extremely sexist remarks. My nervous system had nothing to do with my ability to handle my classes or function as any of the boys in my school at least half of our students in my honours classes were in fact female. This would be like me saying, you guys were too busy having wet dreams to think clearly in school the next day. One thing has nothing to do with the other but can be used to try to explain away sexism. It just means the boys were sacrificed. The most popular move, by the way, damaging their love for studying by providing more opportunities to the slowest. Also, it wouldn't be alike.
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Post by Qetesh on Jul 29, 2014 16:41:44 GMT
I aced my math classes in school and won a National English Merit Award in junior high. I managed to score quite well on my SATs too. I am done with this discussion because nothing you are saying is not offensive in some ways. You are again trying to hide behind science while stating extremely sexist remarks. My nervous system had nothing to do with my ability to handle my classes or function as any of the boys in my school at least half of our students in my honours classes were in fact female. This would be like me saying, you guys were too busy having wet dreams to think clearly in school the next day. One thing has nothing to do with the other but can be used to try to explain away sexism. It just means the boys were sacrificed. The most popular move, by the way, damaging their love for studying by providing more opportunities to the slowest. Also, it wouldn't be alike. No boys were sacrificed in my school. Your theory is just that, a theory and it is flawed. I was a gifted child in elementary school, and had straight As in Algebra in Junior High so your point of argument that girls need more time to be able to have the ability to comprehend studies is ridiculous. Women are just as intelligent as men and you just simply don't want to admit it, because you are a male that does not like that idea. I agree to disagree. We will never see eye to eye on this.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jul 29, 2014 16:41:50 GMT
Scientific certainties and observations about genetic factors that affect personality and propensity towards certain aspects aren't exactly synonymous or congruous with opinion; that's just reality. It's tough to separate the two sometimes because we allow emotion and civility to override logic; and that's kind of what morealsworth is getting at. It's clearly not an attempt at sexism when you remove emotive response, as (he?) makes statements about gender and race that are observable and can be reproduced in scientific method. There are always exceptions to the rule because of environmental factors, intellectual and emotional education, our amazing abilities to adapt and override our innate genetic instinct. Of course, he does sort of invalidate some of his statements by poisoning them with a bit of bias. What is offensive is the idea that the person who stays at home would have any influence on any genetic make-up or how many babies they would be having. The logic behind that idea is sexist. The type of pee pee parts I have, in no way is related to if I stay home or not, this kind of thinking is why at one point were not allowed to vote and work since we were "not smart enough" to handle such things. The same can be said of what was done in the past to the races around the globe. I never stated we were not genetically different, but one is not innately more intelligent than the other. The comment about women rarely being intelligent is quite offensive. You can point out a 10 studies done by men saying women are more irrational and I could find just as many by women to debunk it. Different races are genetically different too, but are you going to try to tell me that one is innately smarter than the others because if anyone does then they might wish to take a look in a mirror and say hello to a bigot. I am not calling you one but this whole point of argument is walking a fine line to prejudice under a veil of science. I actually agree with a fair bit of your viewpoint; it invariably comes down to the individual and not thier "pee pee parts". Whether male or female stays home while thier partner works (if they have one) is fairly irrelivant - especially in the case of most of "modern" civil societies today, with a few acceptions due to religious and political influences. That said, (in no way attempting to derail or invalidate your point), from what I've read and heard, from a scientific standpoint, is that typically men and women process information and environmental factors in sometimes subtly different ways, that we may or may not be conscious of, and sometimes in very noticeable and observable ways. This however is again subjective from individual to individual, and is in no way shows a true measure of overall intellectual (or physical) superiority; people are far to varied and remarkable to be catagorized and sorted in this way. The point I was trying to make is that there is a fair amount of proven evidence in reference that supoorts both genetic and environmental factors directing our decisions and choices, and our overall life outcome, more so than we realize (gender is but one among a mmultitude of factors); and to discard that would be denying rationality and logic over to emotion. Take the phenomena of identical twins - despite many similarities they can become vastly different people. Or look at split-parent homes; whom the child is mainly raised by (exposed to) may determine many differences to some degree; my parents are divored and I often wonder who I'd be had they remained married, or if my father had main custody instead of my mother. All this has nothing to do with being sexist, but to deny gender isn't a factor is illogical - and can possibly be construed as being as gender-biased as well. It's an eternal discussion, really, because of the human-factor of injecting emotional self (personality, the Id, and Ego) into rational observation, thereby skewing our perception (bias). We all do it, I'm probably doing it now, but that's also part of what makes us so infathomably fascinating and amazing. I am not trying to sway you or change your mind about it - your viewpoint is yours and I agree that the commandments presented appear to be very sexist and biased, and need to be reexamined (which apparently has happened). I honestly can't think of any other way to present that particular set of "gender commandments" without seeming sexist, sonI'm curious to see what they've come up with. I may have rambled on a bit and not made my point well; I have a tendancy to do that. I blame my disorganized male frontal cortext and testosterone ladden medulla. ;p
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 29, 2014 17:44:58 GMT
It just means the boys were sacrificed. The most popular move, by the way, damaging their love for studying by providing more opportunities to the slowest. Also, it wouldn't be alike. No boys were sacrificed in my school. Your theory is just that, a theory and it is flawed. I was a gifted child in elementary school, and had straight As in Algebra in Junior High so your point of argument that girls need more time to be able to have the ability to comprehend studies is ridiculous. Women are just as intelligent as men and you just simply don't want to admit it, because you are a male that does not like that idea. I agree to disagree. We will never see eye to eye on this. Women are not the same as men. There are distinctions shown over and over again that are being denied in same postular form "still they are equal because they are" you use right now. I already brought up my arguments. We have EEG. We have positron emission results. All facts tell us men and women do not think the same and the very type and goal of their intelligence is different which correlates to study of historical and tribal anthropology based on archaeological proof. But you yourself are not and never will be willing to admit that there are thing that some people are superior to you. Not even to mention that being more intelligent/differently intelligent does not mean superiority as I already stated above. P.S. Being a prodigy already makes you a bad example due to statistical reasons.
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Lord Ba'al
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 29, 2014 17:47:10 GMT
I was a gifted child in elementary school, and had straight As in Algebra in Junior High So what the hell happened to you between then and now?
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