|
Post by Danjal on Aug 10, 2014 10:43:02 GMT
So, one of the things people mentioned when seeing the Pit of Doom (something that appears to be quite obviously a bandaid to counteract the heavy F2P design of Godus at this point in time) is that the Pit of Doom seems to be a very evil oriented mechanism. And why isn't this counterbalanced with a neutral and/or good alternative?
So just having some random thoughts bouncing around in my head - what WOULD be a good alternative? Well if we remain in the realm of sacrifice, the obvious alternative would be animals.
Balancing aside, the method of sacrificing people is a sound one. But it just doesn't really work just yet. Lets assume for a second that this mechanism COULD be balanced properly. How would that compare to sacrificing animals?
So sacrificing people has the following consequences: - You get a lengthy respawn timer to refill the house you just robbed off its builder. - You get a negative happiness penalty which affects the game in the Astari mechanic currently (unless you've dealt with them already) and likely will have further repercussions in the future. - You lose population in exchange for gems, a morally questionable mechanic - but as these countless of followers are rather useless in the grand scheme its a small price to pay.
So what would sacrificing animals entail? For starters, we could either alter or expand the current mechanic for food. We'd get some pig/cow/sheep farms instead of wheatfields that produce X 'food' per 'time' (to be properly balanced, no insane timers as we have right now...) and sacrificing these animals would yield gems instead of food from that plot. Granted, the yield from an animal would have to be balanced against the yield from a follower in a moral perspective. However from a purely practical perspective, these animals would DIRECTLY influence my ability to expand whereas the followers just sit on their asses and eat food (hint, I value my ability to continue playing more than I do these random Molyneuxs and Attridges)
An alternative would be to get actual wildlife in the game, a regenerating expanding pool of animals dependant on natural food and habitat. If the player decides to cut down swathes of forest, there is less wildlife to get and it'll be much farther out. Taking more time to get it to the butchershop Pit of Doom. Both mechanics would be much more tied into a potential core gameplay and would provide alternatives to sacrificing people.
Ofcourse, both mechanics still rely on sacrifice. And I would imagine that some people wouldn't want to sacrifice... So we'd need an alternative for that aswell. Which leads me to the following - Stop forcing structures onto us. Allow us to decide whether we want to place something and where we want it. If a player doesn't want to sacrifice stuff, allow him or her NOT to have a Pit of Doom in the middle of his starting zone. If a player wants to move it or place them dotted around his empire (late game), allow the player to do so aswell (for a resource-based price).
It'd be real easy to do this, and wouldn't really alter much to the gameplay itself. As for alternate methods of gem acquisition that would fall inline with sacrifice and are 'good' - I can't say I can think of some that would balance out well and 'fit in' at this point in time, but I'm sure my fellow forummembers would be far too eager to offer alternatives.
|
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 10, 2014 11:56:09 GMT
The opposite of sacrificing followers could be bringing dead ones back to life for a hefty price. Those don't really balance each other though.
|
|
|
Post by Deth on Aug 10, 2014 12:08:08 GMT
I see the "good" option as the Gift power. Instead of gaining gems and losing happiness you spend the gems and gain happiness. I think the one other thing they would need to do to balance it out and would help the game is to make happiness act as a buff to reduce all timers. That would balance out the sacrifice timer and for me fits a evil vs good god's society. The good happy society works harder breeds fast while the evil sad society does not work as hard or want to bring as many kids into the world.
|
|
|
Post by Danjal on Aug 10, 2014 12:12:01 GMT
I see the "good" option as the Gift power. Instead of gaining gems and losing happiness you spend the gems and gain happiness. I think the one other thing they would need to do to balance it out and would help the game is to make happiness act as a buff to reduce all timers. That would balance out the sacrifice timer and for me fits a evil vs good god's society. The good happy society works harder breeds fast while the evil sad society does not work as hard or want to bring as many kids into the world. They are opposites of eachother, but they aren't "counteractions" to eachother. You literally just mirrored it. The idea is to get a 'good' method of gaining gems. Not a polar opposite action to sacrificing. If anything, gifts and sacrifice go hand-in-hand rather than belonging to opposite playstyles. You sacrifice people, you get gems. Once you have enough gems, you place down a gift (which you can activate every 10 minutes), this gift counteracts the effects of sacrifice. As time goes on you have more gifts to activate and boost your happiness and in return you can sacrifice more people to gain more gems. As you see, this isn't a counter-action, this is a complementary action.
|
|
|
Post by Deth on Aug 10, 2014 12:22:54 GMT
Yea I can see that. But at this point I am not sure I expect a lot from them and the game. I backed for the morality option and from what I always her Peter go on about I am not sure we will ever get an evil option. Just good and a slight naughty option is what I expect.
|
|
Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
|
Post by Lord Ba'al on Aug 10, 2014 12:29:20 GMT
You sacrifice people, you get gems. Once you have enough gems, you place down a gift (which you can activate every 10 minutes), this gift counteracts the effects of sacrifice. As time goes on you have more gifts to activate and boost your happiness and in return you can sacrifice more people to gain more gems. As you see, this isn't a counter-action, this is a complementary action. Please stop. You're gonna make me .
|
|
|
Post by Danjal on Aug 10, 2014 12:31:25 GMT
You're not sure we will get an evil action? Generally speaking slitting the throats of your followers for their lifeforce is considered to be quite evil. =P Granted, we have no inherent reason to value our followers so other than the Astari minigame there's little reason to not just dunk them all into a burning pool of fire. (The fact that most of them are named using the 22cans team's names is an added bonus.)
And I'm with you, I'm not expecting much either. But its no effort for me to throw this suggestion out there. Perhaps Matthew or George see it, put it infront of the team and they'll do something with it. Or perhaps the cans just keep pattering on as they have been and we'll get nothing out of it. Either way, I've posted my suggestion. (As opposed to only saying how horrid their update has been, I try to offer some alternatives and counterpoints for them to work with.) Will it blend? We'll just have to wait and see...
|
|
|
Post by Danjal on Aug 10, 2014 12:33:47 GMT
Please stop. You're gonna make me . I suspect the medicine for that is available for 25 gems in the store!
|
|
|
Post by rubgish on Aug 10, 2014 13:55:03 GMT
Yeah the fact that your two choices of good or evil involve the follow:
Evil - lose followers to gain gems and then lose even more followers to the astari. Good - SPEND YO GEMS MOFO.
The fact that all the 'gifts' cost gems is downright ridiculous.
|
|
|
Post by Danjal on Aug 10, 2014 14:45:10 GMT
Yeah the fact that your two choices of good or evil involve the follow: Evil - lose followers to gain gems and then lose even more followers to the astari. Good - SPEND YO GEMS MOFO. The fact that all the 'gifts' cost gems is downright ridiculous. Just noticed that the godpowers (beautify in this particular attempt) actually costs gems aswell...
|
|
|
Post by banned on Aug 10, 2014 16:06:21 GMT
because the cash shop is "good" and having game play not abjectly based upon greed is bad. I suspect "Abject Greed" is 22scams company motto.
|
|
|
Post by rubgish on Aug 10, 2014 16:31:19 GMT
Yeah the fact that your two choices of good or evil involve the follow: Evil - lose followers to gain gems and then lose even more followers to the astari. Good - SPEND YO GEMS MOFO. The fact that all the 'gifts' cost gems is downright ridiculous. Just noticed that the godpowers (beautify in this particular attempt) actually costs gems aswell... Beautify costs gems? I didn't notice that, i'm 99% sure it was just 400 belief/sec for me.
|
|
|
Post by Danjal on Aug 10, 2014 16:54:46 GMT
It costs 400 belief/sec, but multiple times now when I selected a power. It also subtracted gems from my total. (I've seen it go down by 1~2 for beautify and by 5 for settlement)
|
|
|
Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 10, 2014 18:03:02 GMT
Just noticed that the godpowers (beautify in this particular attempt) actually costs gems aswell... Beautify costs gems? I didn't notice that, i'm 99% sure it was just 400 belief/sec for me. I haven't noticed God Powers costing gems on my game, other than the Gift powers. And it doesn't say that Beautify costs gems in the Info, so that might be an unintended cost - perhaps a bug.
|
|
|
Post by Gmr Leon on Aug 10, 2014 21:01:44 GMT
Wouldn't the good alternative to the Pit of Doom be as simple as a Temple of Worship, where you can leash your followers to in a similar fashion, only instead of sacrificing themselves they're collectively praising you and offering up sacrament? Honestly, I'd love to see the Pit of Doom be less harsh and allow for a flipping of happiness. Sacrifice so many people and while initially there are the existing downsides (breed less often-preferably somehow changed), eventually when you hit zero happiness it suddenly switches around to where sadistic actions are found pleasurable to your followers, changing their disposition. Once this is done, the more sacrifices and other cruel stuff you do, you get boosts of happiness, more gems, and instantly collectible belief from abodes with each sacrifice/cruel action.
The flipside of this is if you go the Temple of Worship route, it's easier to pull this off somewhat, but makes responses to stuff like destroying your own followers' stuff for whatever reason reduces their happiness, making the "good" approach a balancing act in its own right. (E.g. "good" gifts would reduce the happiness of cruel followers, as would stuff like beautify, and so on. You'd make appropriately themed gifts/powers for the cruel side to complement the good side.)
|
|
|
Post by 13thGeneral on Aug 11, 2014 1:09:22 GMT
I think a Temple of Worship would be a great counter to the Pit of Doom
Also, I really wish the we weren't forced to repair the Pit if we don't want to. We should be allowed to destroy it, or move it, or choose where to build it if we want.
|
|
|
Post by Danjal on Aug 11, 2014 7:47:43 GMT
Thats a pretty good alternative yes. And I agree - being able to place/build/move the structures HAS to be put into the game.
|
|
|
Post by Deth on Aug 11, 2014 13:24:00 GMT
I assume sacrificing Astari also causes unhappiness? I think we should be able to sacrifice the Astari for a happiness increase and the gems. Go for a kind of Inca type of society and I think that would be a good step towards a evil type god/society.
|
|
feanix
Suspected 22Cans staff
Posts: 73
|
Post by feanix on Aug 11, 2014 15:18:07 GMT
I can't contribute much to the design aspect, but I'm curious; What do you guys think of the visuals?
|
|
|
Post by Danjal on Aug 11, 2014 15:40:10 GMT
I assume sacrificing Astari also causes unhappiness? I think we should be able to sacrifice the Astari for a happiness increase and the gems. Go for a kind of Inca type of society and I think that would be a good step towards a evil type god/society. It does cause unhappiness - however as far as I've been able to see the Astari buildings do not provide belief. So there is little reason to keep them around. I can't contribute much to the design aspect, but I'm curious; What do you guys think of the visuals? What exactly do you mean by visuals? If you mean 'how does the building look' - I'd say its functional. I'm not too fussed on the exact looks. The way they jump into the pit looks kinda amusing, but its one of those "its only funny the first time around" kinda things so I don't particularly pay much attention to it. In the long run I'm far more interested in functional aspects of a game than the visual ones. So even if you made the game look really awesome, I personally would rather have it work much better mechanic wise. Godus has always looked reasonably okay and I've had no complaints in that department, so I guess you're doing your job well. =P Just wish the emphasis could be driven back to making the game work, instead of trying to push things off as "we'll balance that later."
|
|