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Post by earlparvisjam on Dec 7, 2014 23:42:19 GMT
"I promised them a game and they now expect the game I promised. How can't you see that's a catastrophe! These annoying backers are making it too difficult to make a F2P crap absolutely different from they paid for!" If you don't want to (or can't) make promises you have to be accountable for, then you're trying to convince them to throw money at you blindly. If there's something you are embarrassed to tell the backers because it'll make them drop out, then you're already on shaky ground and risking trouble. This is how it sounds like PM came at the Godus Kickstarter: "We want to make something new. We don't know what it is or how we'll do it but we'll come up with something. Trust me, you'll like it because my name's associated with things you've liked before." Had they communicated that the project was in trouble and the design wouldn't work, this would have played out very differently. They just compounded problems by releasing to SEA and sucking in a bunch more people to get angry rather than halting work and figuring out how to make things right. Their Kickstarter said A, their Alpha release showed B, and they've been half pretending A was B and half pretending that A would be worried about down the line. It's down the line and the chickens have come home to roost. They haven't figured out a solution to their problem and we're watching the project gasp for air. |
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Post by hardly on Dec 8, 2014 0:13:28 GMT
So given the design team is ahead of the production team can we anticipate a new road map coming after Christmas?
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Post by Gmr Leon on Dec 8, 2014 1:56:29 GMT
So given the design team is ahead of the production team can we anticipate a new road map coming after Christmas? Even more amusing may be this upcoming week in general as they go into "damage control" over Peter being Peter. |
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Post by hardly on Dec 8, 2014 2:46:31 GMT
So given the design team is ahead of the production team can we anticipate a new road map coming after Christmas? Even more amusing may be this upcoming week in general as they go into "damage control" over Peter being Peter. I don't think they need to go into damage control. Nobody cares that much anymore. |
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Post by hardly on Dec 8, 2014 2:55:24 GMT
If I seem zen it's probably because I haven't played Godus in over a month. If I played it again Id probably start raging. Says a lot for the game that it has that effect on people.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Dec 8, 2014 4:21:12 GMT
So given the design team is ahead of the production team can we anticipate a new road map coming after Christmas? If last Christmas is any precedent, then don't expect much more than them flaunting their holiday jubilation, bought with our money, all over the web - and expecting us to revel in the splendor of how clever they are. Even more amusing may be this upcoming week in general as they go into "damage control" over Peter being Peter. I don't think they need to go into damage control. Nobody cares that much anymore. Oh, but that never stopped them before. If I seem zen it's probably because I haven't played Godus in over a month. If I played it again Id probably start raging. Says a lot for the game that it has that effect on people. Enlightenment really kicks in at 3 months; I feel as one with the heavens. |
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Post by hardly on Dec 8, 2014 4:25:37 GMT
This is an opportunity to reflect on 12 months of progress. If you compare the builds the game hasnt advanced much in that time.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Dec 8, 2014 14:05:07 GMT
...they either thought they could come up with a gaming philosopher's stone *snip* Loads of games provide comparable experiences on PC as on mobile and are absolutely brilliant - FTL, Shadowrun, Sword & Sworcery EP, Bastion, XCOM, The Walking Dead, Limbo, Machinarium and Kingdom Rush to name but a few. I don't think the problem is that you can't provide a deep, engaging, PC-like experience on mobile, as the titles I mention clearly prove you can. I think the problem is in assuming that mobile gamers = casual gamers, which I don't think is the case. I think there are plenty of "core" gamers with tablets and smartphones looking for immersive, long-form gaming experiences on the go. It's therefore not so much that you can't make a game that appeals to PC gamers and mobile gamers simultaneously, or even that you can't make a game that appeals to core gamers and casual gamers equally (after all, games from Tetris through The Siims to Monument Valley have been proving that's possible for decades). I think the mistake comes in thinking that casual gamers are somehow stupid or shallow, when in actual fact all they are is pushed for time. You don't need to dumb down a game for it to be successful on mobile. |
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Post by Danjal on Dec 8, 2014 14:27:35 GMT
The main difference between the games you mention and the design concept that Peter mentioned are implementation.
TWD, FTL, Shadowrun, Sword and Sworcery and all the others are good games in their own right - they are made to do what they do and made to do it well.
They're not going about it backwards.
They are also not trying to do the impossible and make a wide range of target audiences come sit around the campfire and be all close and cuddly together.
They know their limits and they don't aspire to be anything more.
Meanwhile Godus design was to be that one game that will bring the world together. That game that EVERYONE will be playing for years to come, that game you play between breaths, that game that casuals and core gamers alike will enjoy and will come back to even when time has come to an end.
Like, I've seen and heard all kinds of grand plans that Peter had for Godus, but we've never seen the core concepts. The basics.
To this day, the game lacks a solid foundation. We have loose components that hardly fit together. We have a heavy dressing of freemium elements for monetization. But we lack that solid foundation, we lack a red line or a goal/objective.
To say that Godus can be good because these other games are good is doing a massive disservice to these other games.
The games you mention aren't good because they're on PC and mobile - they just HAPPEN to be on PC and mobile. And they we released on these platforms seperately - finishing the game first, then releasing it on its respective platforms seperately.
Now, on top of that there is the fact that a LOT of mobile games *ARE* stupid and shallow. Again, just because there are a few gems, does not negate the septic tank filled with shit that you have to wade through to get to them.
The simple truth being that developing for mobile is so "easy"/"cheap" that a lot of people will try their hands at it, hoping they can be the next Candy Crush or Angry Birds.
And even the good mobile games often are very simple at their core - because thats their goal. They aspire to be something you pick up, play for 5~15 minutes without having to think or plan too much and then put it down and get on with your lives.
They have their own little "objective" in the grand scheme of things. And the ones that know what that objective is do shine all the brighter for it.
Take tower defense games, a good tower defense game is by no means "easy" in the sense that mashing buttons will net you a win.
However they are very simple in their concept. At the same time there is a wide range of complexity of tower defense games, ranging from those that are dreadfully boring and dull to those that will make you run away screaming due to their difficulty.
Again, its impossible to blanket statement them to a single catagory.
But just the same, for every gem - there's bucketloads of shit to wade through. And tons of abusive monetization to circumvent.
Why is it that mobile games have such a bad name? Because people don't want to download 20 different apps to find the one that isn't a complete pile of garbage.
Because so many developers choose to go the "easy monetization" route, rather than the clever gameplay route.
Because playing on the addictive nature is so much more rewarding for a developer than actually making an insightful game.
And as good as Tetris, The Sims, Monument Valley and all the others are - Godus isn't like them. It doesn't even come close.
The truth being, all those worries we showed throughout the development are reflected in the result in front of us.
And even the strides made in recent months do not negate that.
No, you don't have to dumb down a game to make it accessible - yet for some reason, thats EXACTLY what 90% of developers out there do when they want to make a game accessible to a casual audience.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2014 15:34:03 GMT
... I don't think the problem is that you can't provide a deep, engaging, PC-like experience on mobile, as the titles I mention clearly prove you can. I think the problem is in assuming that mobile gamers = casual gamers, which I don't think is the case. I think there are plenty of "core" gamers with tablets and smartphones looking for immersive, long-form gaming experiences on the go *snip*
That's one reason why i backed Godus ... i was looking for immersive, long-form gaming experiences on the go. Then someone told me he wants to do the regenesis of godgames for pc and mobile. He told me about playing one game, with a pc-like experience, on mobile and pc. He told me i can seamless switch from PC to mobile and play the game i began on PC in the bus or the toilet or elsewhere.
...they either thought they could come up with a gaming philosopher's stone *snip* It's therefore not so much that you can't make a game that appeals to PC gamers and mobile gamers simultaneously, or even that you can't make a game that appeals to core gamers and casual gamers equally (after all, games from Tetris through The Siims to Monument Valley have been proving that's possible for decades). I think the mistake comes in thinking that casual gamers are somehow stupid or shallow, when in actual fact all they are is pushed for time. You don't need to dumb down a game for it to be successful on mobile. *snip* You have to tell that 22cans. It looks like they don't know about that.
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Post by hardly on Dec 8, 2014 18:33:42 GMT
You're not wrong george. It's possible to make a great game for both platforms. It's probably harder though from a design and technical point of view.
There hasnt been much talk about the mismatch of resources - I have a i74770k with 16gb ram and a 770gtx. My phone is an iPhone 6 and has a 1GB. That is a huge difference.
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Post by hardly on Dec 8, 2014 18:35:41 GMT
Put it this way Godus either sucks because peter made it Multiplatform or it sucks because 22cans don't have the skills to make a good game. Feel free to pick your excuse.
Sorry didn't mean to get into this smack talk. I feel a bit bad because I haven't played it in a month.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Dec 8, 2014 18:50:41 GMT
Put it this way Godus either sucks because peter made it Multiplatform or it sucks because 22cans don't have the skills to make a good game. Feel free to pick your excuse. Sorry didn't mean to get into this smack talk. I feel a bit bad because I haven't played it in a month. Or on top of Peter being dyslexic he's also ADD and incidentally a terrible director when his ADD strikes severely. |
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Post by Qetesh on Dec 8, 2014 21:01:56 GMT
Again, I will state that my daughters doctors have always said that her Bi-Polar diagnosis does not excuse any repercussions for her actions. If you wish to bring any disabilities into it, they should only emphasize the equality of the matter. Give back the money and all is forgotten or it is a completely moot point.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Dec 8, 2014 22:01:31 GMT
... It's therefore not so much that you can't make a game that appeals to PC gamers and mobile gamers simultaneously, or even that you can't make a game that appeals to core gamers and casual gamers equally (after all, games from Tetris through The Siims to Monument Valley have been proving that's possible for decades). I think the mistake comes in thinking that casual gamers are somehow stupid or shallow, when in actual fact all they are is pushed for time. You don't need to dumb down a game for it to be successful on mobile. What a revelation! Have you told Peter? |
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Post by hardly on Dec 8, 2014 22:08:52 GMT
Is jack in charge of Godus now?
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Post by Danjal on Dec 8, 2014 22:20:16 GMT
Is jack in charge of Godus now? I recall reading something about two others being left in charge - not Jack. |
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Post by earlparvisjam on Dec 9, 2014 5:12:12 GMT
...they either thought they could come up with a gaming philosopher's stone *snip* Loads of games provide comparable experiences on PC as on mobile and are absolutely brilliant - FTL, Shadowrun, Sword & Sworcery EP, Bastion, XCOM, The Walking Dead, Limbo, Machinarium and Kingdom Rush to name but a few. I don't think the problem is that you can't provide a deep, engaging, PC-like experience on mobile, as the titles I mention clearly prove you can. I think the problem is in assuming that mobile gamers = casual gamers, which I don't think is the case. I think there are plenty of "core" gamers with tablets and smartphones looking for immersive, long-form gaming experiences on the go. It's therefore not so much that you can't make a game that appeals to PC gamers and mobile gamers simultaneously, or even that you can't make a game that appeals to core gamers and casual gamers equally (after all, games from Tetris through The Siims to Monument Valley have been proving that's possible for decades). I think the mistake comes in thinking that casual gamers are somehow stupid or shallow, when in actual fact all they are is pushed for time. You don't need to dumb down a game for it to be successful on mobile. Let's see, FTL isn't free to play. Shadowrun isn't free to play. XCom isn't free to play. Now, it's possible one or two of those might (might because I've no knowledge of them) be free to play on mobile. Godus is NOTHING like the three I list because of this. If deep, engaging, pc-like experience isn't a problem on mobile, then there's no excuse for Godus being what it is. If it was, most of us wouldn't be here pointing out what a mess this situation has turned into. Because you snipped things a bit too early to try to change what I'm talking about, I'll repeat what I said: "From the beginning, they either thought they could come up with a gaming philosopher's stone or else thought pc gamers wouldn't mind modified free-to-play mechanics and simplistic strategy." While it's perfectly understandable that good games can have simplistic strategy, coupling that with modified f2p mechanics is a recipe for disaster. I believe it's possible that having one or the other might have made a successful game, but it's starting things off with two strikes against it before the first line of code has been keyed in. I never said anything about what mobile gamers are or aren't. I OWN A TABLET AND A SMART PHONE WITH A LARGE NUMBER OF GAMES. I am one, just more of a pc gamer. It's part of the reason I'm able to easily spot f2p mechanics when they show up. The biggest difference between the two markets is that f2p games are more viable on mobile and that the general play styles are different. This all comes back around to f2p and the mechanics used to incorporate it into Godus. Stickers and gems are Godus' bedrock and they are little more than a vehicle for the f2p model. The reason there's so much trouble getting a decent game on pc from all of this is that you can't just yank the shop and pretend that everything's suddenly different. That's what we had for over a year and we're still mostly in the same boat. The issue is that 22Cans thought they could develop a game with f2p mechanics and simplistic strategy for the pc and either assumed people would accept it or thought they could figure out some way of transforming them into something they would like. Or, to use the metaphor from that quote, they've been trying to invent the philosopher's stone to transform this lead balloon into a golden egg. At this point, they're sinking and can't even cash out. |
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Post by Danjal on Dec 9, 2014 14:31:46 GMT
To put things in perspective - you can't defend a platform or model by exclusively pointing out the "success" stories.
Mobile doesn't have a bad reputation because mobile games are bad by definition.
Mobile has a bad reputation because so many developers choose to make bad mobile games.
Particularly when the freemium model comes around the corner.
I'm sure you know that most (if not all) of the "good" mobile games are *NOT* free-to-play. But rather come at a $1~5 pricetag.
Yet so many developers choose to go for the freemium route - for the simple reason that its a zero cost entry threshold.
The more traffic you get, the higher the odds someone will drop some cash.
Add in the fact that these games often thrive in addictive mechanics, effectively playing the odds on those with psychological weaknesses.
Lets look exclusively at Godus. Tell me one thing - why does Godus have a $49.99 or $99.99 package to begin with?
Can you honestly claim that Godus is worth $100?! Yet thats what you're asking people to pay, that and more.
*THAT* is why mobile has such a bad reputation. Because its riddled with games that are build just like Godus turned out to be once the decision was made to focus on mobile.
If I could ask Peter Molyneux one question - I'd ask him if he was proud of the fact that his game utilizes addiction as a monetization scheme.
How he feels about taking advantage of people, so he can earn a payday. Because no matter how much the PC side has improved in the past months.
Its that foundation that still stands at the core of Godus - and its that same foundation that I can see being used for "The Trail".
And I guess I'm just disappointed to see that Peter Molyneux turned out to be "that guy" - just like all the others that opt to go for the "easy route" when it comes to making games.
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Post by Deth on Dec 9, 2014 15:03:23 GMT
Not that I am excusing 22cans from blame, be cause they are to blame for getting into bed with DeNA, but I think the mobile pricing is all DeNA as that is how they price their other games.
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