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Post by Crumpy Six on May 15, 2015 11:13:27 GMT
Does Muir work for Train2Game? I thought he was just taking a course there or something. Edit: Just saw on Muir's LinkedIn that is apparently a volunteer mod there too. In all fairness, me and my colleagues chatter endlessly but if you asked me to report each day on exactly what they've been doing in terms of their work I'd be hard-pressed to give you a useful answer. I could tell you "X was working on Y report and had a meeting with Z" but it would be no better than the worthless daily updates we used to get from 22Cans. I doubt that, sorry. Any developer could tell you what they worked upon for the day they are asked* else they aren't worth their paycheque. When you are working upon game mechanics, such mechanics have been refined, categorised, and labeled so that anyone developing the same are within the same standards. As such, not knowing what you're currently working upon is pure bollocks. * - Because developers work upon so much, what they did last Thursday might not be memorable, but what they did yesterday should be quite on-hand. Well of course, but that's a different thing to the assertion that the community guys should simply know what their colleagues are working on based on general office chatter. |
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heggers
Master
Posts: 203 
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by heggers on May 15, 2015 12:39:31 GMT
Muir is a student with Train2Game. I'll be honest, I looked into a course with them as well but after meeting with the "course adviser" (read sales rep) I realised just how much of a sham group they really are. They aren't City and Guilds registered so whatever you get out of the money you give them is pretty much worthless. I emailed the HR groups for a number of different software houses enquiring as to whether the "qualification" was worth anything and the response was largely negative.
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Post by 13thGeneral on May 15, 2015 14:06:52 GMT
In all fairness, me and my colleagues chatter endlessly but if you asked me to report each day on exactly what they've been doing in terms of their work I'd be hard-pressed to give you a useful answer. I could tell you "X was working on Y report and had a meeting with Z" but it would be no better than the worthless daily updates we used to get from 22Cans. I was thinking the same thing, too. I've literally been working on a project at work for the last month that is both repetitive and has almost no deviation; it would be pretty boring to report on, and has such subtle changes it would be difficult for lamens to define any discernable progress. And having to report on that mundanity would get quite tiresome. That's why I questioned their efforts on day one of the Daily Dev Updates; it was really bound to become unmanageable and difficult to maintain for the long term. It really set themselves up to look like real arses when it inevitably fizzled out - which is exactly what happened. It was a nice gesture and attempt, but ultimately was not a well thought out idea, and showed their inexperience (and, unfortunately, highlighted their ineptitude). I mean, if you can't even put together a Dev road map in a reasonable amount of time, or show any meaningful progress or updates, how do you expect to keep up that kind of pace on each employees daily routine? Overall, it appears to have been more of a distraction - to both the Devs and community alike - and utterly backfired. Well done, you've only managed to pour water on a grease fire. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on May 15, 2015 19:27:30 GMT
Muir is a student with Train2Game. I'll be honest, I looked into a course with them as well but after meeting with the "course adviser" (read sales rep) I realised just how much of a sham group they really are. They aren't City and Guilds registered so whatever you get out of the money you give them is pretty much worthless. I emailed the HR groups for a number of different software houses enquiring as to whether the "qualification" was worth anything and the response was largely negative. You'd be much better off looking into Unity 3D. There are free tutorials available and they're pretty good. As it turns out it is also quite unexpectedly fairly simple to create a 2D game in the 3D engine. Who'd have thought! |
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Post by Gmr Leon on May 15, 2015 20:28:03 GMT
Muir is a student with Train2Game. I'll be honest, I looked into a course with them as well but after meeting with the "course adviser" (read sales rep) I realised just how much of a sham group they really are. They aren't City and Guilds registered so whatever you get out of the money you give them is pretty much worthless. I emailed the HR groups for a number of different software houses enquiring as to whether the "qualification" was worth anything and the response was largely negative. You'd be much better off looking into Unity 3D. There are free tutorials available and they're pretty good. As it turns out it is also quite unexpectedly fairly simple to create a 2D game in the 3D engine. Who'd have thought! Speaking of fun tangents, the creator of Gunpoint (Tom Francis) who seems to be a swell guy, has an extensive YouTube tutorial for GameMaker. |
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Post by hardly on May 15, 2015 21:54:19 GMT
Aynen and muir, I know there have been longstanding disagreements between yourselves and the community as to what is appropriate for managing the forums, but this really does seem extreme and unjustified. Is there some as-yet undisclosed reason for all of this? As of yesterday, Mandrake, Mindless and Hardly took to the steam forums and practically bullied one of our newer members for liking the game. Just because someone likes the game doesn’t make them a troll, just because some disagrees with your opinion doesn’t mean you can hurl abuse at them. Bullying is completely unacceptable and downright shameful in any culture. This is something that we will not stand for. mrdrpink I'm still waiting for you to provide any evidence to back up your defamatory statement. I take it you don't have the courage of your convictions to come on here and give an honest account, with actual evidence, of what transpired? It is a very sad reflection on you as an individual that you think you can make those accusations, provide no evidence whatsoever and think that is acceptable. How would you feel if I accused you of such things without proof and refused to defend my statements. You made the accusation Dave and you need to own it. You can reach me here or on Steam if you have the courage.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 22:21:20 GMT
In all fairness, me and my colleagues chatter endlessly but if you asked me to report each day on exactly what they've been doing in terms of their work I'd be hard-pressed to give you a useful answer. I could tell you "X was working on Y report and had a meeting with Z" but it would be no better than the worthless daily updates we used to get from 22Cans. I was thinking the same thing, too. I've literally been working on a project at work for the last month that is both repetitive and has almost no deviation; it would be pretty boring to report on, and has such subtle changes it would be difficult for lamens to define any discernable progress. And having to report on that mundanity would get quite tiresome. That's why I questioned their efforts on day one of the Daily Dev Updates; it was really bound to become unmanageable and difficult to maintain for the long term. It really set themselves up to look like real arses when it inevitably fizzled out - which is exactly what happened. It was a nice gesture and attempt, but ultimately was not a well thought out idea, and showed their inexperience (and, unfortunately, highlighted their ineptitude). I mean, if you can't even put together a Dev road map in a reasonable amount of time, or show any meaningful progress or updates, how do you expect to keep up that kind of pace on each employees daily routine? Overall, it appears to have been more of a distraction - to both the Devs and community alike - and utterly backfired. Well done, you've only managed to pour water on a grease fire. I have to agree with you both, that when you're working on the same thing day to day it can feel like no progress is being made if someone has only the same thing to report as the day before. But at least they have something to report. No roadmap or even anything about what they intend to develop upon aside from Combat Indefinitely, then Multiplayer, then No Fecking Clue. Not only have they managed to make it sound as if their development has been massively cut back, but the overall team output reflects it. With community-interactive development, as 22cans implied for the Kickstarter and as per the nature of Early Access...and how the game has turned out...it really is hard to believe that it's all from just simple communications breakdown - but that is what is being publicly offered as a reason by 22cans. It is because of this I can guesstimate that perhaps Andrew/Kyreal to be one of the next departures, as it appears like he's already checked out. |
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Post by hardly on May 15, 2015 22:30:11 GMT
Here is a picture of my complete ban notice. This is the first time I've been on Steam on my computer since being banned. I hope its not too small.
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Post by hardly on May 15, 2015 22:40:45 GMT
Just to complete the story so my only other post in that thread - yes in my alleged vicious bullying attack I posted just twice - is below. That is it. Banned for a month for two posts and effectively one word - "Trolling".
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 22:55:59 GMT
Just to complete the story so my only other post in that thread - yes in my alleged vicious bullying attack I posted just twice - is below. That is it. Banned for a month for two posts and effectively one word - "Trolling".
While the "bullied" fellow was calling folks in the community, obviously those they were replying to in another topic, the exact same thing. No, wait, they said "troll problem" as in a noun instead of the verb both you and I used. "The game is fun the community has a bit of a troll problem, from all the publicity that has drawn in the misery loves company crowd. But if ya get past that the game is worth a purchase. If you aren't sure if its a game you'll specifically like check out some youtube videos of it, I did before I bought it." steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/0/620713633841303537/#c620713633844273280Not publicly warned, post still exists in a thread Aynen, muir, and mrdrpink have all obviously seen so far... Well, it does now when 22cans selectively enfarces that flames and even what they will define as "personal attacks" are perfectly okay if you don't direct it at any one person and offer it wholesale to everyone.
I hope you brought enough personal attacks for EVERYBODY! |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2015 23:14:04 GMT
While looking through some tweets, I browsed across this exchange with that mysterious "Annah" - the "new artist" that we were supposed to believe was now part of the Godus dev team. According to her site and frequent work, it appears that Annah is a contractor instead of a company developer, probably the real reason why she was never listed on the Daily Dev Updates. Despite having a...  www.22cans.com/about-us/Not seen here, so forgotten or contractor. Wait, it gets better. The reason for the Daily Dev Updates being ceased is a curious one given that now they're able to claim other developers at 22cans still working on Godus:  steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/7/620713633849384065/#c620713633849386583Can anyone think of any Daily Dev Update that included them at all except when Konrad mentioned the times he had to involve Peter again on a title that should have had Peter's mug first thing on every Daily Dev Update? They might as well be claiming Bobo the Wonder Monkey to be working on Godus at this point... |
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Post by mindless on May 16, 2015 0:47:12 GMT
Just to complete the story so my only other post in that thread - yes in my alleged vicious bullying attack I posted just twice - is below. That is it. Banned for a month for two posts and effectively one word - "Trolling".
While that certainly sucks to get banned over such an apparently trivial non-issue, at least you can console yourself with the fact you still have access to your original post history, you were luckily spared the injustice of a total history wipe. Once your temporary ban expires, if you care about your previous communications, you will at least have access to them once more, I can't stress enough the importance of backing them up. It's a mistake that I now regret I never had the good sense to do for myself, I'm still kicking myself about that, leaving myself in a position where I can't defend myself against whatever spurious claims the moderators choose to frame against me, and then being denied the right to confront my accusers directly out in the open, thank God ( Lord Ba'al) this forum exists otherwise there would have been nowhere for me to go. |
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Post by hardly on May 16, 2015 1:46:18 GMT
Just to complete the story so my only other post in that thread - yes in my alleged vicious bullying attack I posted just twice - is below. That is it. Banned for a month for two posts and effectively one word - "Trolling".
While that certainly sucks to get banned over such an apparently trivial non-issue, at least you can console yourself with the fact you still have access to your original post history, you were luckily spared the injustice of a total history wipe. Once your temporary ban expires, if you care about your previous communications, you will at least have access to them once more, I can't stress enough the importance of backing them up. It's a mistake that I now regret I never had the good sense to do for myself, I'm still kicking myself about that, leaving myself in a position where I can't defend myself against whatever spurious claims the moderators choose to frame against me, and then being denied the right to confront my accusers directly out in the open, thank God ( Lord Ba'al) this forum exists otherwise there would have been nowhere for me to go. Yeah that is especially shit. |
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Post by hardly on May 16, 2015 2:27:00 GMT
Hi,
Before I start I want to note that I dont recall ever making a plea to Steam Support. My account is in good standing and if you review it you'll find I have many games and regularly spend money on your services. This wont continue if I feel I cant participate on Steam without being unfairly persecuted by "community" moderators.
I would like to draw your attention to the "community" moderators behavior on this thread. Recently four community members were banned in one night (names: mindless, tikigod, mandrake and myself (hardly)).
We consider there were no grounds for us receiving bans stretching from one month to a permanent ban. Before you dismiss my complaints out of hand as general community dissatisfaction and grumbling please consider review the thread in question ((https://steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/0/620712999984612194/)
) - I trust you can see the deleted posts? - and consider the following:
My supposed offense was bullying - "direct personal attacks on another person (i.e. calling them a troll) despite being warned about this several times in the past" (Ban notice attached)
I did suggest they were a troll in a sense but its important to note I used it as a verb "Zombie now I know you are trolling us...." (As per ban notice)
I believe it is germane that 3-4 hours after I made this post, and before I was banned, I posted a "live and lets live" post (attached) and went to bed. I was banned during the night when I was inactive with no warning.
The person I suggested was trolling had in a previous post referred to those who disagreed with them as trolls (noun) and has to date received no sanction. He had also (after asking for our opinions on the game) suggested we were ungrateful, impatient and didnt know what we want. Im paraphrasing.
The sum of all my posts on this thread as you can see were these two. Basically I was banned for using a single word "trolling" which I consider is a legitimate term used to describe a certain type of forum behavior. It is a commonly used internet term and I dont believe the way I used it was bullying or in fact could be considered offensive.
I have received no warnings as stated in the ban notice and they at no time sought to raise their concerns with me.
Given they banned 4 people based on one thread, none of whom can be seen to bully the person, the only purpose seems to be to remove people they dont like and who are critical of this game from their forum. This game has received a large amount of negative feedback and 22Cans appear to whereever possible delete, move or otherwise hide critical threads. This undermines the buyer beware element of early access.
I'd further like to add that the supposed offending posts were deleted depriving us of any ability to defend our good names. Further the community manager then publicly defamed us by calling us bullies despite there being no evidence to back this statement up. Of course he had deleted the threads that proved otherwise and we were muzzled so other community members were left solely reliant on his version of events. I beseech you to review the events and see whether this description of my posts is a fair representation of what transpired:
"As of yesterday, a couple members took to the steam forums and practically bullied one of our newer members for liking the game. Just because someone likes the game doesn’t make them a troll, just because some disagrees with your opinion doesn’t mean you can hurl abuse at them.
Bullying is completely unacceptable and downright shameful in any culture. This is something that we will not stand for. " (https://steamcommunity.com/app/232810/discussions/6/618458030686194549/#p3)
If you believe this is a fair description of what I did by saying "Zombie now I know you are trolling us...." then I have no chance of convincing you to intervene. However, if you believe as I do that this is an example, and by no means an uncommon one, of moderator overreach, defamation, vindicativeness and in fact bullying (they have power I do not) then perhaps you will agree to intercede on my behalf. If you do chose to intercede may I please humbly suggest the following actions:
(1) Please revoke my banned status and if you consider it appropriate the other people who you in your judgement might consider were also unfairly persecuted.
(2) Undertake a review of other recent moderation decisions on the GODUS forum including but not limited to reviewing deleted threads to see whether deletion was warranted or an example of censorship and review of recent ban decisions against steam rules and expected community standards.
(3) Finally if you find systemic issues in the way this forum is managed and a departure from the moderation practice expected then please consider revoking 22Cans ability to manage their own forum or request a change in community moderators.
I would also appreciate an apology from 22Cans for both their overreaction and the defaming of my good name.
If you wish to get in touch with me for further clarification dont hesitate to message me. I eagerly await your response.
Regards
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Post by 13thGeneral on May 16, 2015 2:41:09 GMT
I just can't see how they expect history will remember this insanity. Hint: the internet never really forgets. They will never come out rosey on the other side - even if somehow they deliver a game even remotely resembling what they pledged.
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Post by mindless on May 16, 2015 3:26:24 GMT
hardly, that's an excellent report, I'm going to follow your lead and make my own complaint to steam support.
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Post by hardly on May 16, 2015 4:07:39 GMT
hardly, that's an excellent report, I'm going to follow your lead and make my own complaint to steam support. Your case appears even stronger since you didn't use the word troll and you were perms banned |
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Post by mindless on May 16, 2015 8:42:55 GMT
Here are screenshots showing my report has been successfully submitted.    I'll keep everyone posted on whatever response that I receive. |
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Post by hardly on May 16, 2015 9:12:53 GMT
Nice work Mindless. You struck a very nice tone and balance along with maticulous collation of evidence.
I hope Tikigod and Mandrake have the time and inclination to do a similar request.
I wonder what Dave makes of all this. We still don't know if he banned us or whether it was Aynen or Muir. They are keeping tight lipped on that little detail. If Dave is smart he'll come out now and apologise and withdraw the bans and if possible through Aynen/Muir under the bus.
It's possible the steam mods will just say it doesn't matter and 22cans can do whatever they want but I'm really hopeful given how blatant their transgressions are the steam mods will take action.
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Post by mindless on May 16, 2015 10:52:07 GMT
Regardless of who banned us, it was Dave that posted the defamatory material, So I am holding him to account.
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