Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 25, 2015 1:17:18 GMT
Somehow I get the feeling that people are not taking me seriously.
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Post by colin22cans on Jul 25, 2015 1:27:14 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 2:02:40 GMT
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 25, 2015 5:00:08 GMT
So...What exactly constitutes "ground level"? Is that whatever layer the settlement's on? Also, am I mistaken, or has the settlement compression seen some adjustment to allow for the buildings not to be just one bland blob of clipping abodes all the time? Oh, and last time you mentioned enemy AI sculpting...Could you guys maybe go more into that, as well as where our more interesting god powers come into play? Not that I don't get kicks out of seeing tiny dudes bash each others' heads in, but I can see way better versions of that in other games. Your selling point is this whole thing where I get to hurl meteors, tear the earth asunder, whip the winds and the seas into swirling columns and pits of destruction, sweep the lands with fire and water, and so on and so forth. Where's the only unique part to this combat? The interesting bit here is that god powers and pets were the only "combat" in Black & White. The sequel had both PC-centric combat in the actual game and god powers, so seeing this sterile mobile rubbish after all these years is a rather distinct disappointment. I know this isn't terribly popular to say, but I have a hard time reading any of these combat descriptions as being mobile-oriented. Some of the button parts of the UI that were shown early on, sure, I could see that a little, but even if that were the case, it's not unusual to see RTS games retain buttons in their UI too. Heck, Starcraft II still has a button for attack that you could use if you really, somewhat inexplicably, wanted to. As far as I'm concerned, the only part of these descriptions that speaks to mobile to me isn't what's there, it's more of what's not there, but what's not there isn't anything new, so much as lingering about from the base game's trainwreck state. With that in mind, I think that criticizing this as if it's something they intended to do is a little off, as it's more appropriate to blame the original team for what they seem to have intended to do (leave the game as-was, without any real combat whatsoever). ...That's not to say I'd not like to see them try to build off the scrapheap they were left with and deviate from those original intentions more (as my last question relates to) with some deeper resource and upgrade system than what we've seen up to this point, buuut I don't think it makes much sense to pelt them with the mobile criticism when for all we know, they're struggling to work against the crappy grain they've set themselves against of a demoralized, burnt out rest of the team that has probably next to no interest in trying to salvage the project. Then again, what's it really matter at this point, yeah? None of us are going to believe their work any step of the way until we somehow see a miraculous turnaround at the end of it all that makes us go, "Well fuck, I guess you were working towards something we'd like after all, but what a shitshow getting there." Edit:
To end on a somewhat less sour note: basically, every other thread we have around here can be for the burning barrels filled with 22cans' squandering of its buyers'/backers' good faith, genuine interest, and investment in the concepts behind the project. However, where development anything is concerned, maybe it would be more beneficial to leave it be instead of starting another barrel fire, so maybe the mirages they're creating might see some feedback that helps them be realized into something more than the shallow mirage we're concerned about. (I.e. start a separate thread for the criticism, leave the announcement thread for anyone that may think they can get through to 22cans, if there's anyone left that thinks that...Which in itself would be more telling than us dragging the mud that's become their rep in from the rest of the swamp they've created.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 5:31:13 GMT
Don't know where to start, right? I can't say that I could blame you for that one - it's not a pretty legacy to have to handle now. What I think is in the best interests here if there were some better organisation of the grievances around the game, and how severe the community feels that they should be considered by 22cans - along with community-suggested resolutions for these problems. That way they aren't so often popping up all around with too much bleed-over in topics, but nor are they able to be ignored as it offers a more central focus towards actual problem resolution - the first step, identification. I've started something here that I think in time should help 22cans better understand many of the problems around the game, and how the community feels about them: godus.boards.net/thread/1128/grand-list-grievances |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 6:16:12 GMT
The interesting bit here is that god powers and pets were the only "combat" in Black & White. The sequel had both PC-centric combat in the actual game and god powers, so seeing this sterile mobile rubbish after all these years is a rather distinct disappointment. None of us are going to believe their work any step of the way until we somehow see a miraculous turnaround at the end of it all that makes us go, "Well fuck, I guess you were working towards something we'd like after all, but what a shitshow getting there." I think everyone here was relatively willing to give Simon a chance, and had there been a genuine attempt to return to the development of Godus, we would have a much more constructive relationship with 22Cans. The skeleton crew remains, the same development practices remain, and the public relations have somehow managed to degrade. All despite the issues with Godus apparently being "easy to fix, basic problems". Belief in this scenario is predicated on words and actions, neither of which have changed much over the past few months. On another note, I would not be particularly offended if 22Cans said something to the effect of "We Kickstarted the game, it ran out of funds and failed, we used the player interest to get a contract with DeNA and thus implement the "invest-to-play" monetization model, and the game you are currently playing now is the offspring of the contract as opposed to the Kickstarter." Exponentially better than "SpaceBase in a random announcement after hinting at it for months in interviews". Don't know where to start, right? I can't say that I could blame you for that one - it's not a pretty legacy to have to handle now. What I think is in the best interests here if there were some better organisation of the grievances around the game, and how severe the community feels that they should be considered by 22cans - along with community-suggested resolutions for these problems. That way they aren't so often popping up all around with too much bleed-over in topics, but nor are they able to be ignored as it offers a more central focus towards actual problem resolution - the first step, identification. I've started something here that I think in time should help 22cans better understand many of the problems around the game, and how the community feels about them: godus.boards.net/thread/1128/grand-list-grievancesMight I suggest we first determine if 22Cans is willing to engage with the community on a communications, development, and feedback level beyond Combat and work on Combat and how hard everyone is working on Combat? I can't quite tell. |
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Post by hardly on Jul 25, 2015 10:15:04 GMT
I really wish we could stop shitting on every scrap of information and focus more on the positive elements of them. I was just about to say something similar - that's why I mostly refrain from commenting these days; I don't have anything very positive or constructive to say at this point. I do appreciate the updates, to be sure, and they are interesting to read. It's nice to see some sort of "progress" even it it's not significant. Though I am long since burned out on this combat thing. If they had put this much time into the initial design, or even the timeline or settlements, imagine where we would be today. We certainly would likely be less crass about it all. Lets hope whatever comes after combat gets at least just as much attention. Me too. I'm not unhappy with the specifics of what they are doing but I am unhappy with where the project is heading. Does that make sense? I am supportive and unsupportive at the same time. I think this is why we get some people posting quite negative stuff which to be honest isn't wrong (otherwise I'd publicly disagree with them) but is also quite tiring. To be clear I'm not criticising anyone for accusing 22cans for acting badly since this is a valid view point supported by a long trail of evidence, it's just I don't see any room for me to add to this discussion or new interesting ground being broken. I note game stats for godus are at their lowest ever on steam. |
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Post by hardly on Jul 25, 2015 10:26:23 GMT
I feel that it should be possible to discuss a specific topic without throwing in all the bagage of the past at every occasion. We are all aware of the rather significant amount of bagage, including everyone at 22cans. The amount could not be contained by the largest vessel on the seas. Bringing it up hurts the discussion of the topic at hand and by extension the interactivity between the community and the studio. Furthermore it hurts the forum because of several reasons. It likely impacts negatively on the relationship between us and 22cans. This leads to a decreased willingness on the part of 22cans to interact with us. Existing members grow tired of posting because it's always the same old crap. Potential new members don't join because they are not interested in the same old crap. Some new members join only because they want to pile on the heap of same old crap but will likely not post again afterwards. All further hurting the symbiotic relationship. It seems we're in a downward spiral and I would like to break away from that. All of this I say for the benefit of the community. That said, this forum exists because of the need for truth, openness and honesty. Negative opinions are very much a part of our existence, they are in fact at the core of our origin. But I think they need to be contained in the topics where they are actually applicable. I completely agree and have had similar feelings - fatigue at arguments heard many times over. At the same time I don't want people to feel like they can't post their honestly held opinions. For me the critical point is that there is no reason for optimism and people rationally respond to that by reacting negatively. How can we suggest that is wrong? At the same time I'm trying to be positive and it's tough to read long negative posts at this time. If only there was an open plan and real promises for godus. . . |
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Post by morsealworth on Jul 25, 2015 11:56:45 GMT
It seems like you are all not getting the point. You can have any opinion that you want to. You have the freedom to create as many threads as you want to in order to present and discuss your opinions. But there is no need to poison every single thread with aggravations that are already being presented in countless other threads and have no dealing with the topic at hand. Sure, indirectly it is all connected, because all of it is related to godus and/or 22cans. That doesn't make it on-topic. Over time I have put a huge amount of my personal time into creating and maintaining this forum and I have put a lot of work into trying to build an interesting and fun community. Lately I've been finding it disappointing to read my own forum and that's just sad. Quite frankly I'm starting to get a little pissed off about it too. I got your point the first time round. You had several points, in fact. And I believe I've done my best to get across mine that the connection is way more direct than you think. When you have an elephant in the room you can't talk about scratches on the walls without talking about the lephant who produced their scratches. The reason everyone keeps returning to the same old negativity is natural discussion drift, and the speed at which it comes to that indicates just how fundamental and important for the context problem is. In other words, there is little to nothing to discuss without returning to the fundamental problem which overlaps with the nature of our concern towards the update and feature. Not even to mention that their feedback filtering discourages us from any positive feedback as it lets them make fools of us in another "Hey, we've got upvotes" post. If you still think I'm writing an off-topic post, try to move this post to more relevant thread and issue a warning to me (that's those are for). If you'll find such thread as this post is closely connected to my previous one which is closely tied to combat and its state. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 15:45:09 GMT
I completely agree and have had similar feelings - fatigue at arguments heard many times over. At the same time I don't want people to feel like they can't post their honestly held opinions. For me the critical point is that there is no reason for optimism and people rationally respond to that by reacting negatively. How can we suggest that is wrong? At the same time I'm trying to be positive and it's tough to read long negative posts at this time. If only there was an open plan and real promises for godus. . . I think the latter is the crux of the issue, that without an open plan duplicity does still seem quite frequent. Natural discussion drift created by a void of required information, while apparently fluff information is offered, is only to be expected. This is unfortunately reinforced by how feedback seems to be fenced into a little section where votes seem to matter more or on the same level as detailed criticism. Do they just split between positive/negative and feel done with it, or are there any community concerns they are actually bringing on-board? If it's the former then it's just a show of lip-service by 22cans, if the latter they probably should show it a bit more often by not hiding from anything not Combat. So this time, I hope that feedback upon this would help them better process feedback in the future.  |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 25, 2015 18:09:26 GMT
I completely agree and have had similar feelings - fatigue at arguments heard many times over. At the same time I don't want people to feel like they can't post their honestly held opinions. For me the critical point is that there is no reason for optimism and people rationally respond to that by reacting negatively. How can we suggest that is wrong? At the same time I'm trying to be positive and it's tough to read long negative posts at this time. If only there was an open plan and real promises for godus. . . I think the latter is the crux of the issue, that without an open plan duplicity does still seem quite frequent. Natural discussion drift created by a void of required information, while apparently fluff information is offered, is only to be expected. This is unfortunately reinforced by how feedback seems to be fenced into a little section where votes seem to matter more or on the same level as detailed criticism. Do they just split between positive/negative and feel done with it, or are there any community concerns they are actually bringing on-board? If it's the former then it's just a show of lip-service by 22cans, if the latter they probably should show it a bit more often by not hiding from anything not Combat. So this time, I hope that feedback upon this would help them better process feedback in the future. All of this is true but there is a place for everything. There is basically an unlimited amount of space actually as there is no limit to the amount of threads that can be created and there's no limit to the amount of posts that can be made in threads. (theoretically) People seem to keep trying to rebuff my previous postings on this thread with arguments like "but they are not discussing any of these other topics". So what? Those other issues can be discussed in any number of other threads. It is not the topic of this thread. It sours the forum overall. There is already evidence of members deleting their accounts for this exact reason. As the keeper of the forum I find it my obligation to protect it and to provide a haven for people to express their opinions whatever they might be. If any one of you were in my position you would feel the same way. All I'm asking is that people assess for themselves whether what they want to post is really appropriate for the thread they're about to post in or whether it belongs in a different or an entirely new thread. I don't think that's much to ask. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 18:33:06 GMT
All of this is true but there is a place for everything. There is basically an unlimited amount of space actually as there is no limit to the amount of threads that can be created and there's no limit to the amount of posts that can be made in threads. (theoretically) People seem to keep trying to rebuff my previous postings on this thread with arguments like "but they are not discussing any of these other topics". So what? Those other issues can be discussed in any number of other threads. It is not the topic of this thread. It sours the forum overall. There is already evidence of members deleting their accounts for this exact reason. As the keeper of the forum I find it my obligation to protect it and to provide a haven for people to express their opinions whatever they might be. If any one of you were in my position you would feel the same way. All I'm asking is that people assess for themselves whether what they want to post is really appropriate for the thread they're about to post in or whether it belongs in a different or an entirely new thread. I don't think that's much to ask. Quite true and well, which I well agree with. This all brings up again to the bigger question, - what does giving feedback matter? This is an important point in context to threads like these, when people have discussed how Combat might fit within the rest of the game - well within topic - only to be similarly ignored for some scorecard of approval votes to be held up. If there is only a numerical value brought on board then it would appear that these threads are ultimately pointless to discuss in, which is a concern I feel that you should have about how 22cans is using your forum. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 25, 2015 19:33:44 GMT
All of this is true but there is a place for everything. There is basically an unlimited amount of space actually as there is no limit to the amount of threads that can be created and there's no limit to the amount of posts that can be made in threads. (theoretically) People seem to keep trying to rebuff my previous postings on this thread with arguments like "but they are not discussing any of these other topics". So what? Those other issues can be discussed in any number of other threads. It is not the topic of this thread. It sours the forum overall. There is already evidence of members deleting their accounts for this exact reason. As the keeper of the forum I find it my obligation to protect it and to provide a haven for people to express their opinions whatever they might be. If any one of you were in my position you would feel the same way. All I'm asking is that people assess for themselves whether what they want to post is really appropriate for the thread they're about to post in or whether it belongs in a different or an entirely new thread. I don't think that's much to ask. Quite true and well, which I well agree with. This all brings up again to the bigger question, - what does giving feedback matter? This is an important point in context to threads like these, when people have discussed how Combat might fit within the rest of the game - well within topic - only to be similarly ignored for some scorecard of approval votes to be held up. If there is only a numerical value brought on board then it would appear that these threads are ultimately pointless to discuss in, which is a concern I feel that you should have about how 22cans is using your forum. Whether or not a thread is pointless is not up to you to decide. Many people might find a thread interesting even if you don't. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 20:41:28 GMT
Whether or not a thread is pointless is not up to you to decide. Many people might find a thread interesting even if you don't. I'm not saying that the news posts are pointless, as there is still discussion going on with something to comment upon, so I feel that they still have potential; I'm pointing out that the threads have good potential to appear pointless if feedback appears to be pointless. There have been many requests from the community, notably upon Steam (to relay the message), that have been almost utterly ignored. I am not sure if that is the message 22cans wants to send out. |
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Post by mindless on Jul 25, 2015 20:47:44 GMT
... It is not the topic of this thread. It sours the forum overall. There is already evidence of members deleting their accounts for this exact reason. As the keeper of the forum I find it my obligation to protect it and to provide a haven for people to express their opinions whatever they might be. If any one of you were in my position you would feel the same way. All I'm asking is that people assess for themselves whether what they want to post is really appropriate for the thread they're about to post in or whether it belongs in a different or an entirely new thread. I don't think that's much to ask. I'm of the opinion that 22 cans have made their bed this way, and now they have to sleep in it. The negativity that they receive is justly deserved, and as this appears to be one of the best places to reach them, it kind of stands to reason that people holding onto a grudge will want to post here in an attempt to reach the cans, because we know they ignore/censor the other venues, e.g. when was the last time the cans posted a comment responding to anyone in the kickstarter comments section? But I do see your point that posting the same stuff, over and over and over and over and over again, can get repetitive and boring. There is a time and place for negativity, and agree that we don't need it to show up everywhere, its continuing recurrent appearance seams to just be a function of the background level of animosity that is still bubbling away, not quite at the boiling level it has been in the past, but still warm enough to scald anyone that dips their fingers in to see how hot it still is. I worry that the situation is now almost locked into a self fulfilling prophesy. where a large proportion of the community suspect that the game is (or will be) a failure, and will be ultimately abandoned, and all their feedback ends up helping to convince others that there is no future for this title, if the devs start to believe that no one has any hope then maybe they will give up on it? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:01:41 GMT
Right, I think some people are still missing the plot here. These are the posts that the person(s) leaving the forum wrote in regards to what "sours the forum overall":\ Food for thought for everyone, I'm sure. Now, here's the thing. 22Cans has made it rather clear that they consider these updates as feedback threads. Saying "I don't like X, I believe it should be Y, and and I really think communication on Z is making it difficult to believe that our feedback is being considered." is feedback, and I can't quite see how it's harming anyone or anything. After all, the current issues people have with Combat have a cause, and if 22Cans is clearly able to rectify that cause it is on us to make them aware of that. Another bone of contention, perhaps even more important than the above, is this tripe about how "bringing up the the baggage of the past" is "hurting the interactivity between the community and the studio, impacting negatively on the relationship between us and 22cans, and leading to a decreased willingness on the part of 22cans to interact with us". Poppycock. For all intents and purposes, there is no functional community/developer relationship due to the "baggage of the present" and this thread is a perfect example of that. Aynen came in here and posted the same generic "We love your feedback, wait and see" line that he's practiced for the last two years and the PR manager posted a nonsensical reaction image instead of actually, you know, doing PR. Not quite sure why we should throw softballs to 22Cans for more of that, but maybe I'm the only one who doesn't like bargain-bin platitudes being dolled up as "community interaction". Edit: And this has very little to do with "prior" negativity or ill-will or disappointment from the prior 22Cans administration. 22Cans had the opportunity for a fresh start with Godus development and PR with Simon and Colin, the fact that they've chosen to gleefully double down on Molyneux's plan for the game and ignore/antagonize the community is an indictment in and of itself. |
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Post by totallytim on Jul 25, 2015 21:12:15 GMT
I understand Ba'al, I think we all do. But considering the current situation I feel that anything said that isn't at least partly negative would be pretending and hoping 22Cans somehow notices our positive attitude and responds in a similar manner. We tried that didn't we? I still remember the effort Gmr went through to make the "Lets jam" thread on the Steam forums in which he basically did the PR job for them and gathered questions addressed to Peter. Sure we got a few videos, which didn't quite satisfy, since Peter still managed to dodge the important questions and ramble on about something entirely different for most of the videos duration. Then a few weeks later we again got the silent treatment and things actually made a turn for the worse.
I'm sorry but I can't pretend to be nice to someone who more or less openly tries to mock the community, when history will probably just repeat itself. I think considering the circumstances we accepted Colin and Simon with a rather positive attitude, but a few months later it turns out they're not much better then their predecessors.
Somehow it seems like we achieved more by holding a mostly negative attitude than vice versa. If nothing else we contributed to the waterfall of articles hammering PM and 22C a few months ago and at least they made some more people aware of the situation and got Peter to shut up for once, because his bullshiting himself out of the noose made me physically sick. Small wins right?
Even some of 22Cans replies in the past made it seem like they were surprised by us not liking the delivered product. Sure it was probably more PR bullshit, but I still believe that if we all kept our cool for all these years, we'd probably see an officially complete (mobile) game on Steam by now + a few pieces of DLC.
Still, I completely understand. I also realise that the constant negativity hurts this forum's atmosphere and it actually makes me feel guilty every time I say something cynical or negative here because I realise you had bigger hopes with this place. But sadly that's not why I'm here. I feel cheated out of my money and I'm very grateful to you for providing us with this open forum where we can freely voice our opinions, but so far as I see it it's ether to try my hardest to find something positive to say when there's actually none or shut up entirely. Both only benefit 22Cans while we don't get anything in return from them and that doesn't feel right to me.
So actually it's ether I keep going or I go away, because it's really hard for me to silently observe what's going on. I'd prefer to stay since I've grown to like a lot of people here. I know this may sound childish, but I sadly wouldn't be able to stay, observe and ignore, not considering how things are going.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:17:44 GMT
There is that point as well.
From how little much of an overall plan 22cans has offered to much of anyone but more mea culpa, while no feedback of substance appears to be entertained, these little tidbits of info posts may be perceived by some as little slaps at the community of 22cans barely doing their part to really interact with the whole community they have involved.
That is why I mentioned the Kickstarter, because I was hearing noises that they've been forgotten again for some time.
Some answers to the tune of over half a million pounds would be nice.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2015 21:26:38 GMT
There is that point as well. From how little much of an overall plan 22cans has offered to much of anyone but more mea culpa, while no feedback of substance appears to be entertained, these little tidbits of info posts may be perceived by some as little slaps at the community of 22cans barely doing their part to really interact with the whole community they have involved. That is why I mentioned the Kickstarter, because I was hearing noises that they've been forgotten again for some time. Some answers to the tune of over half a million pounds would be nice. I think one of the bigger problems with our "interactions" with 22Cans is that, at least on the Steam forums, Simon appears to be actually taunting/belittling the community in over a third of his posts. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 25, 2015 22:06:36 GMT
Another bone of contention, perhaps even more important than the above, is this tripe about how "bringing up the the baggage of the past" is "hurting the interactivity between the community and the studio, impacting negatively on the relationship between us and 22cans, and leading to a decreased willingness on the part of 22cans to interact with us". Poppycock. Did you just insult me? I think you did! I'm gonna give you one chance to retract that. If you don't I'm afraid that for the first time in the history of this forum I will be forced to take special measures. Which in this case for you would mean "hasta la fuck off and don't come back". The ball is in your court. |
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Aug 21, 2024 19:32:37 GMT
Aug 21, 2024 19:32:37 GMT
