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Post by Qetesh on Jun 30, 2014 16:24:32 GMT
.. which is, repeatedly, an embarrassing situation that reflects poorly on you and your company. Like it or not. We're bringing on more. Also, I don't have an issue with Muir's moderation - I find him diligent and effective. He's far less of an ego-manic than I am, for example. On this we disagree. You have said yourself that you have only been around for about 45 days and yet you won't listen to those of us that have been here since the start in the trenches with Muir's moderation tactics. It was quite obvious how overboard he was when we had two at 22cans and I can only assume you are bringing in two "good cops" to play off of Muir's very obvious "bad cop". The posters on both forums have been stating this for over a year and it is like one giant slap in the face that 22cans does not seem to care about something such as our Moderator and how we feel he is hurting the community overall. I won't make a poll about it, but If I ever did, I think you know what the results would be. When your community does not care for one of it's representatives, it is just bad business and another PR nightmare to keep pushing him on them. You ask for a way to prove good faith good will. Listening to the community about this moderator instead of telling us you are happy with him and ignoring our pleas would be a huge way. I personally avoid both other forums now because of this moderator. I never called him names and I am not insulting him , I am stating that his moderation style is hurting more than helping your community. I am sure he is a perfectly nice person in RL, but he is not a good Moderator and even more so, a bad fit for these Forums.
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 30, 2014 17:30:56 GMT
He's far less of an ego-manic than I am, for example. You have to be very good at hiding that.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 30, 2014 17:50:20 GMT
If there are any current or future specific instances of Muir crossing a line, please let me know and both Matthew and I will investigate and have a discussion about it.
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Matthew Allen
Former 22Cans staff
Full Time Rock Star
Posts: 295
Pledge level: Elemental
Steam: MrMatthewAllen
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Post by Matthew Allen on Jun 30, 2014 17:52:20 GMT
Just to chime in on this real quick, another side of things that needs to be considered is that we get numerous reported posts a day and sorting through these reports is a part of the community team's myriad of responsibilities. There have been many warnings and bans given that we were alerted to due to the reports that were coming in. The point I'm making is that even if a member thinks that treading the line is generally accepted by their peers in the community, you might be surprised by how many members will silently take issue, by way of anonymously reporting said posts, with the way a member is conducting themselves. We're not banning members just to pick on them or because we disagree with what they say. That's not the kind of community culture we want to foster and it's certainly not the kind of community team we want to be. So it's usually a mix of maintaining the rules, taking reports into account, and ensuring that the community is a welcoming place for all members regardless of their opinions.
Being a good community team member is a bit like being a restaurant host and a party host all at the same time. A party host will connect people together, praise incoming guests appropriately, maintain conversations throughout the event, and see everyone safely off with a smile and a wave. A restaurant host must be certain the ambiance is just right, know that the kitchen is functioning appropriately, and help the rest of the staff pull off a flawless dining experience. The blend of the two mindsets suit a community team member well. So, along those lines, if one of the guests at this dinner party is becoming unruly to the other guests and even the host, it is often the host's responsibility to try to veer things back in a positive direction and, failing that, to then politely ask the guest to excuse themselves from the party.
Now I know there's some holes that could no doubt be picked in the above metaphor, but I'm sure you get the general spirit of the idea. Likewise, do keep in mind that reporting goes both ways. If there's a member of the community team that you feel is overstepping their bounds then please do report it, if only so we can get a feel for where the community's temperament is to the community team and where we need to be careful and improve. We all sort through reports so it's always useful for us to see that kind of feedback when appropriate.
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Post by rubgish on Jun 30, 2014 18:26:10 GMT
I haven't bothered to read the full thread on steam because I have better things to do with my time, but if you are (pretty obviously) trying to be antagonistic against an authority figure and they respond, to the extent that you then proceed to brag about it elsewhere afterwards, then that's just really childish behaviour. It's like when you were at school and a kid would brag about getting a detention cause they were so 'hardcore' and didn't do their homework. It's not actually big or clever, it's just being silly for no reason.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jun 30, 2014 18:43:40 GMT
I haven't bothered to read the full thread on steam because I have better things to do with my time, but if you are (pretty obviously) trying to be antagonistic against an authority figure and they respond, to the extent that you then proceed to brag about it elsewhere afterwards, then that's just really childish behaviour. It's like when you were at school and a kid would brag about getting a detention cause they were so 'hardcore' and didn't do their homework. It's not actually big or clever, it's just being silly for no reason. And that's why I usually refrain from participating in those kinds of threads; I am neither a braggart nor an antagonist, and thus distance myself from those discussions (tho still prone to the occasional lapse). I generally make an effort to not support or condone that type of behavior.
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Post by banned on Jun 30, 2014 22:20:40 GMT
But no worries, one set of rules for the cheerleaders, nothing new. Oh I forgot your usual posting posting style is conducted with such honour and respect. And just in case you missed my meaning, I was being sarcastic. honor (spelled correctly you British heathen) and respect are earned. while I have respect for you as you have shown yourself not the coward 22cans has been to date, honor is not something I generally associate with corporate shills. No disrespect intended, simply your job does not allow for honesty. Sorry, other than "It is never my intention to piss anybody off on purpose - I've a hard enough time making sure I don't do it accidentally, last thing I want is a fight on my hands!" which was irrelevant to the conversation, still don't see the sarcasm. or did you mean to side step culpability for the insults? (which you are welcome to make and I would never deny your right to feel appropriate. See my skin is not thin and I am fully accepting not everyone accepts my genius and destined validity
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Post by hardly on Jun 30, 2014 23:04:37 GMT
TBH telling someone or something to go die in a fire is probably ill considered as many people could easily and justifiably take offence from this. If we want 22cans to engage with us we do need to be balanced and measured in our comments.
I just want to state that while I am often critical of 22cans and think they show both a lack of vision and competence at times I do genuinely want them to succeed l. The realist in me thinks the company is more likely to GDIAF. That is a challenge to 22cans to succeed and I hope they do. The best way to deal with your detractors is to prove them wrong and no community would be happier to be wrong than this one.
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 0:25:15 GMT
Except I didn't tell anyone to go die in a fire. I told a corporate construct that. The post was constructive, was not trolling, and you simply dislike my pointing out that 22cans has been all talk and no product. I state that I am an asshole. I have never stated that I like it nor that I reserve the right to anything. I state it up front so folks don't get their undies all knotted on the assumption that there is any personal insults intended. You chose to ignore the actual post and read what you desired into it. Think skin nothing more, and sad abuse of power should be opposed and pointed out. You seriously think I don't know what DIAF actually stands for? I've been on forums since '94! Then you come on this forum saying you've earned cred for getting banned even though you hadn't yet? How stupid do you think I am?? Do you think I don't keep track of these things? Your ban was well-deserved and you know it - fallacious, weak and pathetic arguments to the contrary make no difference to that. If I banned people who were critical of 22cans, there'd be nobody left on the Steam forums. You gleefully crossed a line in an effort to goad us and now you're paying for the consequences of your actions. I suggest you man up and deal with it, instead of bleating now that I've halted your ill-intentioned "fun". I never said DIAF meant anything else. My point was assumption of intent. Your willful ignorance is your doing not mine. I came here when already banned, it was a 24 hour ban which you extended but a ban none the less. "If I banned people who were critical of 22cans" is a straw-man as it is only the ones who stick around despite the hostile environment that are harassed by your mod.s. and your "fallacious, weak and pathetic arguments" to make yourself feel better about the one sided nature are equally irrelevant. "gleefully", sadly, nothing involving Godus since my handing over a few hundred US to 22cans has in any way been filled with glee. I made no threat to any one and you damned well know it. I suggest you follow your own sexist comment and admit your staff intentionally misrepresents, intentionally miss-assumes, and y'all work for a company devoid of integrity.
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 0:28:52 GMT
Do you mean this post? That's me genuinely trying to be constructive and make that conversation progressive - I'm surprised you could take that any other way? It is never my intention to piss anybody off on purpose - I've a hard enough time making sure I don't do it accidentally, last thing I want is a fight on my hands! As it is, I've given TigrisMorte a 3 day ban for his response to Muir. Like it or not, Muir is a mod and TigrisMorte was taking intentionally baiting, trolling and arguing with him. It's only for three days, so it's not what I would consider a big deal but if it happens again, then it'll be 30. Ah come on. Quote: "Please would you expand on this? How do you propose this system would work, exactly? Please would you give some mechanical examples?" We have explained this paritcular suggestion a feeled 200 million times in different versions. As we did with most other things you are talking about in this thread - see clicking (oh, sorry i don't understand, do you mean dragging?) I am sure if you browse the different Forums you will find more than one thread about "dragging is better than endless clicking but the game has still too much clicking. Stellen wir uns halt mal ahnungslos. Only thing missing was something like "your feedback is very important and i will forward this to the dev team" - the 22cans standard rebuff.
Maybe you meant it really genuinely or maybe you really think you meant it genuinely but after one 1 1/2 years of it i am used of that kind of blah.
By the way, you can ban him 20 years, i don't care. And yes it should never get personal. And i have to say that i am a friendly and settled character, i never got banned or anything else (since i bought my first modem to play UO in 1997) but the way 22cans handles this Kickstarter makes me angry and i stay away from the steam forums because i know i am not sure it would end good.
ignorance by design, they choose to over react and are stunned it bites them in the ass. 24 hours, a week, or 20 years are all of no relevance. The intent is to chill by threat for purely short term gain. 22cans abused kickstarter, continue to lie about their actions, and have shown no intent of ever producing the rewards they sold me. I shall never allow 22cans to have the facts disappeared.
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 0:31:51 GMT
Except I didn't tell anyone to go die in a fire. I told a corporate construct that. The post was constructive, was not trolling, and you simply dislike my pointing out that 22cans has been all talk and no product. I state that I am an asshole. I have never stated that I like it nor that I reserve the right to anything. I state it up front so folks don't get their undies all knotted on the assumption that there is any personal insults intended. You chose to ignore the actual post and read what you desired into it. Think skin nothing more, and sad abuse of power should be opposed and pointed out. I am going to play Devil's advocate for a minute here. 22cans is a corporation but really a business has people working for it and so when you wish a horrible death to business, does it not infer that you wish ill will to the actual employees as well? I could understand you wishing business horrible things to a company like " I hope you go bankrupt and have o shut your doors down" or " I hope your bill collectors harass you daily and your bank calls in all your loans" but I hope you die in a fire is not really something a business can do, because while the building that might hold it could burn to the ground it would not kill the business. It would have insurance and have a new building, so this is where an inference of a threat to the employees come to mind because if there was a fire in their building they could actually die. If someone were to tell me that they hoped my company would die in a fire, it would be quite upsetting so this is where I can understand where a Mod can and should step in. This is not to say that they would not freak out over the other comments I mentioned but at least there is no inference of ill will to actual people in that one. The whole lake thing, just made me chuckle. As a mod, I would have said "touche" on that one and let it go. He should really think about picking his battles a bit more and have a bit of a sense of humor. Sadly they work for a morally corrupt business. I wish they would find gainful employment elsewhere, but otherwise I wish them no ill will. Just like I can wish certain repressive regimes would fall without wishing ill to the people in that Gov. and yes, I am not well endowed with "knowing when to quit."
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 0:43:47 GMT
Please bear in mind I've barely been with 22cans for 1 1/2 months, let alone 1 1/2 years, so a lot of this is still new to me. Plus, we'd been having such success with the Work In Progress thread here on this forum, I thought I'd be able to get some genuinely useful feedback using the same methods there. Additionally, "resource generation/collection and logistics" is an enormous change from Gopdus' current mechanics and can/does mean a lot of different things to different people, especially as such systems have been implemeted in a variety of ways by different games. As such, I don't think asking for clarification on that specific point could be seen as trying to wind up the OP - I was genuinely looking to see what his own interpretation of those mechanics were. Dude don't you know, we rule!! Plus you don't have the world's best Mods there. Okay kidding aside, I think we get more constructive posts here because we allow the negative ones. If Steam were to allow some negative threads, complete with disclaimers, then it would give people a place to bitch and vent. Once they felt they had yelled it out, then there are more ready to discuss things in a more constructive way as well. It is not to say that people will still not be pissed but trying to gag people generally only makes them yell louder. Steam is not a community forum, it is a developer forum. It is innately bias and always will be, people that go there and think that is is their right to say as they wish, get disappointed, angry and frustrated. because tolerance breeds respect and repression breed contempt. I assure you I took your "devil's advocacy" far more seriously than Muir's anything.
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 0:52:52 GMT
I haven't bothered to read the full thread on steam because I have better things to do with my time, but if you are (pretty obviously) trying to be antagonistic against an authority figure and they respond, to the extent that you then proceed to brag about it elsewhere afterwards, then that's just really childish behaviour. It's like when you were at school and a kid would brag about getting a detention cause they were so 'hardcore' and didn't do their homework. It's not actually big or clever, it's just being silly for no reason. Firstly, yout' authority exists to be antagonized. Anarchy! and had Muir not repeatedly harassed me by PM on the kickstarter backer's forum we would have a different situation. I assure you it is pointing out hypocrisy not braggadocio. also there is nothing wrong with being silly for no reason.
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 1:22:58 GMT
TBH telling someone or something to go die in a fire is probably ill considered as many people could easily and justifiably take offence from this. If we want 22cans to engage with us we do need to be balanced and measured in our comments. I just want to state that while I am often critical of 22cans and think they show both a lack of vision and competence at times I do genuinely want them to succeed l. The realist in me thinks the company is more likely to GDIAF. That is a challenge to 22cans to succeed and I hope they do. The best way to deal with your detractors is to prove them wrong and no community would be happier to be wrong than this one. I respect your PoV. and had the reply been "that's offensive please reword it I would have as the intent was not remotely as it is being represented. I said, "Yeah, sure, believe ther is no P2W in the plan given track record. Again, prove it. Until 22cans does, they may kindly DIAF. Thanks." Now here comes the "I am an asshole" part, in my mind only an idiot or willful choice make a threat from that. Intent is obvious not "I want you to" but "put up or shut up" However it is always easier to take offense, and play "semantic minutia polka" to focus attention away, than to argue for the indefensible. I understand why 22can's employees choose to reinterpret for an excuse to abuse their authority rather than defend the actions of their company.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 1:45:25 GMT
We're bringing on more. Also, I don't have an issue with Muir's moderation - I find him diligent and effective. He's far less of an ego-manic than I am, for example. On this we disagree. You have said yourself that you have only been around for about 45 days and yet you won't listen to those of us that have been here since the start in the trenches with Muir's moderation tactics. It was quite obvious how overboard he was when we had two at 22cans and I can only assume you are bringing in two "good cops" to play off of Muir's very obvious "bad cop". The posters on both forums have been stating this for over a year and it is like one giant slap in the face that 22cans does not seem to care about something such as our Moderator and how we feel he is hurting the community overall. I won't make a poll about it, but If I ever did, I think you know what the results would be. When your community does not care for one of it's representatives, it is just bad business and another PR nightmare to keep pushing him on them. You ask for a way to prove good faith good will. Listening to the community about this moderator instead of telling us you are happy with him and ignoring our pleas would be a huge way. I personally avoid both other forums now because of this moderator. I never called him names and I am not insulting him , I am stating that his moderation style is hurting more than helping your community. I am sure he is a perfectly nice person in RL, but he is not a good Moderator and even more so, a bad fit for these Forums. It doesn't build much faith when the new moderator sounds like someone that just purchased the game today and logged onto the forums for the first time. I wondered why this new face with no idea what's going on had an orange name like Muir. Don't know what I'm talking about? Check out our first interaction with Aynen...
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 2:05:32 GMT
On this we disagree. You have said yourself that you have only been around for about 45 days and yet you won't listen to those of us that have been here since the start in the trenches with Muir's moderation tactics. It was quite obvious how overboard he was when we had two at 22cans and I can only assume you are bringing in two "good cops" to play off of Muir's very obvious "bad cop". The posters on both forums have been stating this for over a year and it is like one giant slap in the face that 22cans does not seem to care about something such as our Moderator and how we feel he is hurting the community overall. I won't make a poll about it, but If I ever did, I think you know what the results would be. When your community does not care for one of it's representatives, it is just bad business and another PR nightmare to keep pushing him on them. You ask for a way to prove good faith good will. Listening to the community about this moderator instead of telling us you are happy with him and ignoring our pleas would be a huge way. I personally avoid both other forums now because of this moderator. I never called him names and I am not insulting him , I am stating that his moderation style is hurting more than helping your community. I am sure he is a perfectly nice person in RL, but he is not a good Moderator and even more so, a bad fit for these Forums. It doesn't build much faith when the new moderator sounds like someone that just purchased the game today and logged onto the forums for the first time. I wondered why this new face with no idea what's going on had an orange name like Muir. Don't know what I'm talking about? Check out our first interaction with Aynen... yup, more of the same. Loved the "how do we know they have not yet worked on the PC game?", um, history of action perhaps? Because obviously we should all blindly wait and never consider facts actually on the table 'cause surely it isn't all lies again.
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Post by earlparvisjam on Jul 1, 2014 2:16:15 GMT
yup, more of the same. Loved the "how do we know they have not yet worked on the PC game?", um, history of action perhaps? Because obviously we should all blindly wait and never consider facts actually on the table 'cause surely it isn't all lies again. Now that I've seen the official "Welcoming Aynen" thread, there's no point in furthering discussion. My post could technically get me banned since it could be interpreted as arguing with a moderator, though what I said is true. I'm wondering how soon it'll be before someone gets a ban for disagreeing with him/her in a discussion. At the very least, a new moderator should know a tiny bit about the community that they're being put in charge of.
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Post by banned on Jul 1, 2014 2:17:22 GMT
Except I didn't tell anyone to go die in a fire. I told a corporate construct that. The post was constructive, was not trolling, and you simply dislike my pointing out that 22cans has been all talk and no product. I state that I am an asshole. I have never stated that I like it nor that I reserve the right to anything. I state it up front so folks don't get their undies all knotted on the assumption that there is any personal insults intended. You chose to ignore the actual post and read what you desired into it. Think skin nothing more, and sad abuse of power should be opposed and pointed out. You seriously think I don't know what DIAF actually stands for? I've been on forums since '94! Then you come on this forum saying you've earned cred for getting banned even though you hadn't yet? How stupid do you think I am?? Do you think I don't keep track of these things? Your ban was well-deserved and you know it - fallacious, weak and pathetic arguments to the contrary make no difference to that. If I banned people who were critical of 22cans, there'd be nobody left on the Steam forums. You gleefully crossed a line in an effort to goad us and now you're paying for the consequences of your actions. I suggest you man up and deal with it, instead of bleating now that I've halted your ill-intentioned "fun". and of course were I the troll you wish to paint me, there would be dozens of proxied IP accounts posting via script. Sadly, for your narrative, I my be rude and poorly mannered but I an seldom utterly off base. Getting folks scared to confront the bullshit won't actually do any good. Short term fix until the game press again excoriates the waste of drive space. But feel free to declare victory and claim I am the problem despite having never done anything but tell the truth and pass damned good advice. Reality, is that until 22cans provides more than tongue wag and denial of reality, the company is doomed.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jul 1, 2014 2:26:33 GMT
So Aynen finally got his long coveted mod job. Good for him.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Jul 1, 2014 2:28:30 GMT
So Aynen finally got his long coveted mod job. Good for him. Aynen's not completely out of nowhere then? Because that's the vibe I got when I first saw that stuff.
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