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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jun 15, 2014 16:43:19 GMT
I said it in that thread, I'll say it here. Muir is a giant hypocrite. That this isn't an isolated incident at this point is, to me, a reflection on Matthew and George, so I'm calling you two out as well - you two are also hypocrites. It's frankly both puzzling and embarrassing that you choose to continue to have someone who behaves like Muir represent you, your company, and your product. It isn't like you have a forum full of teenagers complaining about this, either. You have quite a few adults, in their 30s and 40s, pointing this out to you for a period of time now, and you take no action. At this point, I'm projecting his behavior solely on you two, since ultimately, it's your call to have him be your representative.
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Post by hardly on Jun 15, 2014 19:38:14 GMT
The moderation on steam is just sad. I can't even be bothered getting involved. Matt/George should sack Muir who is far too immature for the role. As people have pointed out Denny broke heaps of George's unwritten rules but Muir ignores is because he sees Denny as being on his side.
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splitterwind
Master
Posts: 149 
I don't like: Ignoring a unpleasant question or answering with something that is only loosely related or way to vague to actually answer something. Mods that Cherry-pick in discussions. Banning people for minor offenses.
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Post by splitterwind on Jun 15, 2014 22:04:04 GMT
You know I wouldn't be surprised if Denny Crane actually is a puppet created by Muir so he can behave like a dick on the forum without endangering his precious position. That's just silly really, Denny Crane is obviously not a puppet. Anyhow, wrt Denny Crane and the stuff being said, they are smart enough to *just about* not do too much to be banned. Just ignore them if you are bothered by what they are saying. I wonder if I would get warned/banned if I started behaving like a fictional character and insult people that are pro Godus (of course, only "some" of them and I would never specify who and of course I wouldn't use hard swear words or circumvent the swear filter...). Somehow I guess that I wouldn't last 3 posts. I'm not even upset about denny crane, just about the biased moderation. They banned people for months for rather harmless stuff. |
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Post by hardly on Jun 15, 2014 22:23:19 GMT
We have been told off/banned for sarcasm and singing a les mis song. Denny openly insults other users and uses offensive stereotypes and Muir says it's ok because they are just stereotypes and no applied to anyone in particular. It amazing the logical contortions he has to perform to be a such a one sided moderator.
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rhamnusia
Wookie
Posts: 36 
Pledge level: didn't get in on that
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Post by rhamnusia on Jun 16, 2014 1:35:35 GMT
Wow, just wow. I've always found Denny Crane to be annoying, but mostly just ignored him. That thread though - what a self righteous ignorant prick he is. It's unbelievable that Muir gave Denny Crane a pass the first time, but the second time he derailed the thread after everyone had gotten back on topic and were discussing things in a reasonable, adult manner - just wow. I'm flabbergasted.
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Post by sidara on Jun 16, 2014 9:55:57 GMT
When I first encountered Muir on the 22cans forums I assumed he was a kid because he was so immature - but apparently he has a kid of his own or something so he must be late twenties at least.
As for Denny Crane, he's a massive troll who should have been banned long ago if the mods were doing their jobs. If denigrating people who don't agree with him as effeminate, then effectively calling anyone effeminate inferior (sexist trash at its worst), is not enough to get banned, then I have no idea what the rules are or how they are being applied on the Steam forums, but it's not somewhere I want to hang out.
Heck I just read a thread where someone insulted someone else and instead of editing the post Muir just said "Don't insult other people" (presumably because the offender was a positive poster insulting a negative one, or perhaps I'm just getting paranoid).
No, the Steam forums are not a pleasant area. The relentless negativity doesn't help but the awful moderation is just like a foul miasma over the whole place.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jun 16, 2014 10:55:24 GMT
The moderation style on the Steam forums has gone through phases. Back in October-December last year it was VERY heavy-handed, with lots of people getting banned without warning (albeit for short periods of time) and posts being edited without notificaton or explanation given to the original author. Edits included removing any reference made to the approach to moderating the boards, and in some cases removing text where people disagreed with Muir on Godus-related topics (he actually edited one of my posts to remove text where I'd pointed out some inconsistencies in the "inside information" he was sharing). In one case he edited my post in such a way that the quote formatting got screwed up and the post didn't make sense anymore. I couldn't fix it because he locked the thread immediately afterwards, and when I asked him to fix it as an aside in another post he just edited THAT post to delete the request - without actioning it.
Then he had a huff about how thankless moderating is and said he wouldn't do anything at all, ever. This was great. I didn't actually believe he would stick to his word, but he did and the atmosphere got a lot better.
Since George decided the boards were too aggressive for new posters, Muir's back in full force though thankfully not doing the irritating ghost-edits any more. I agree that he seems very immature and appears to interpret rules in a way that gives some participants a lot more leeway than others.
My understanding is that Muir has a personal relationship of some kind with a member of the 22Cans team so they may not be able to easily remove him from this role (he's made plenty of references to this in the past when dropping snippets of info to the community). That's the only explanation I can think of for why he's still a mod.
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stuhacking
Master
Posts: 170
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by stuhacking on Jun 16, 2014 12:35:10 GMT
My understanding is that Muir has a personal relationship of some kind with a member of the 22Cans team so they may not be able to easily remove him from this role (he's made plenty of references to this in the past when dropping snippets of info to the community). That's the only explanation I can think of for why he's still a mod. That kind of situation (office relationship) could arguably be called a conflict of interest.. but since we're only talking forum moderation and not employment I think it's pretty moot.  I think the reason they don't de-mod him is much simpler: He's one of the most positive Godus backers, even in the face of everything that has upset the community. He also seems to take direction very well- Sam, Matthew and George have all admitted that Muir acts on their requests. So it looks like Muir has no problem dealing with a bit of grief. I think he just wants a job in the game industry and gladly accepts the moderator role because of the proximity to Peter it affords him. But that's just speculation, I have nothing to back that up. |
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 16, 2014 17:45:08 GMT
Thanks for stepping in on that ridiculous steam thread Monkeythumbz. |
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Jun 16, 2014 17:50:18 GMT
Thanks for stepping in on that ridiculous steam thread Monkeythumbz. Jesus fucking wept... what a mess that was! Tbh, I can't bloody wait to get some of this newly revamped content into your hands - as I've said from the start, the only way to demonstrate progress in the right direction and to foster positive sentiment within the community is with software deliverables. Even though what we're doing now doesn't fall under a PC-specific sprint, it does make the Godus experience as a whole a heck of a lot better/more fun. Once it's in your hands, hopefully there will be fewer arguments and will go some way to resolve the 5 months of silence the Godus community had to endure. EDIT: Btw, I do realise that I'm the CM, but even CMs are allowed time off over the weekend, right? Or (genuine query) do you think it's reasonable for the Steam community to expect us to moderate on evenings and weekends too? |
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Post by Crumpy Six on Jun 16, 2014 18:01:41 GMT
The complaint isn't that it happened during the weekend. It's that Muir was actually there the whole time, participating in the discussion and defending blatantly abusive behaviour.
PS. Thanks for stepping in and locking the thread.
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Post by nerdyvonnerdling on Jun 16, 2014 18:07:26 GMT
I think it would be completely unreasonable to expect you or anyone else to work outside of normal, sane work hours. Though, I also think it's completely unreasonable that you continue to have Muir represent your company. Consider, a post that you rightly called out for flame-baiting and name-calling (and frankly, it was much more than that), your mod justified as O.K., because in his words, since it was directed at people in general instead of a person specific, it wasn't sexist, it was stereotyping.
Because in his head, apparently degrading stereotyping is totally kosher. That's your chosen representative. In what professional environment is that at all justifiable?
But yeah. Normal work hours and weekends. You are certainly entitled to them.
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Post by hardly on Jun 16, 2014 19:34:11 GMT
Yeah normal hours definitely but as others point out have a think about how Muir is representing you while your away.
We appreciate the new information coming out. I'm really interested to see where you go with the settlement revamp. Id like to see more community spitballing re features with more back and forth discussion of the development path and decisions but that would require devs to be more involved with community and not just CMs.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Jun 16, 2014 23:23:13 GMT
Thanks for stepping in on that ridiculous steam thread Monkeythumbz. Jesus fucking wept... what a mess that was! Tbh, I can't bloody wait to get some of this newly revamped content into your hands - as I've said from the start, the only way to demonstrate progress in the right direction and to foster positive sentiment within the community is with software deliverables. Even though what we're doing now doesn't fall under a PC-specific sprint, it does make the Godus experience as a whole a heck of a lot better/more fun. Once it's in your hands, hopefully there will be fewer arguments and will go some way to resolve the 5 months of silence the Godus community had to endure. EDIT: Btw, I do realise that I'm the CM, but even CMs are allowed time off over the weekend, right? Or (genuine query) do you think it's reasonable for the Steam community to expect us to moderate on evenings and weekends too? Seriously. That thread had it coming. Steam forums always explode on the weekends, so don't sweat it. I'm sure we look forward to this release as much as you apparently do. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 17, 2014 16:10:52 GMT
I am just going to put in my two cents.
The problem is not if the CMs deserve time off... the problem is the person you delegated to handle it while you are not monitoring it during this time. What is the point of a mod if they need constant supervision? A moderator's job is to prevent exactly that from happening. If you have a busy board then, yes you should have someone moderating on weekends and evenings, this tends to be the time when people have most free time and so would be the busiest. Any good moderator should know that you can't just check in from time to time or things will get out of hand. Somebody should be moderating during peak times of days and in this day and age of smart phones, you hardly need to sit at home to do it the whole time. Perhaps you might wish to pick another moderator that you can trust to handle these situations without supervision during those times, but again, I would wonder if you have a moderator that cannot do the job without you, then why do you have them?
If my employee fraks things up when I am not around, the pooh hits the fan on me too, so that is why I make sure my employee would never allow things to get so fraked up. If she did, she would not be my employee anymore.
You would be better off, IMO, if you used mods that could be more bias and 3rd person neutral than someone that clearly shows tendencies of unfairness. I don't know if you will answer this or not, but seriously are you really happy with the moderating at Steam? Or do you not feel comfortable answering that?
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rhamnusia
Wookie
Posts: 36
Pledge level: didn't get in on that
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Post by rhamnusia on Jun 17, 2014 23:21:07 GMT
I think regardless of their opinion of Muir and what they may or may not do about him, they need another mod that can be active weekends and evenings. I think as often as things blow up on the weekend, it's a bit much to ask one person to be on top of.
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Lord Ba'al
Supreme Deity
Posts: 6,260
Pledge level: Half a Partner
I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
I don't like: Dimples in the bottom of scotch bottles; Facebook games masquerading as godgames.
Steam: stonelesscutter
GOG: stonelesscutter
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Jun 17, 2014 23:24:53 GMT
I think regardless of their opinion of Muir and what they may or may not do about him, they need another mod that can be active weekends and evenings. I think as often as things blow up on the weekend, it's a bit much to ask one person to be on top of. I think Peter Molyneux would make a good candidate to do the weekend modding. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 17, 2014 23:30:22 GMT
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Matthew Allen
Former 22Cans staff
Full Time Rock Star
Posts: 295
Pledge level: Elemental
Steam: MrMatthewAllen
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Post by Matthew Allen on Jun 18, 2014 17:05:57 GMT
I think regardless of their opinion of Muir and what they may or may not do about him, they need another mod that can be active weekends and evenings. I think as often as things blow up on the weekend, it's a bit much to ask one person to be on top of. Completely agree. This is something I'm heading up and looking to get sorted before our new forums go live. |
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Post by Qetesh on Jun 19, 2014 9:26:06 GMT
I think regardless of their opinion of Muir and what they may or may not do about him, they need another mod that can be active weekends and evenings. I think as often as things blow up on the weekend, it's a bit much to ask one person to be on top of. Completely agree. This is something I'm heading up and looking to get sorted before our new forums go live. I think the Spanish team should certainly be available soon. |
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