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Post by hardly on Oct 1, 2014 21:18:35 GMT
Do you understand what the word "play " means?
<snip> I would disagree. I'd wager the fine folks at 22cans are much more interested in their iOS endeavors at the moment than worrying about what words actually mean. That said, 22cans does have a long, well documented history of arguing with their community about well established word definitions and meanings. Rest assured, solid, well understood word meanings will be iterated away under the bonkers care of the 22cans narrative crew, in the fullness of time, of course. Dude, peter is a gaming legend with 20+ years experience in the industry, if he says the game is in Gamma then who are you to suggest otherwise? The fact is that PC gamers feel wronged by 22cans. When you see how much monetary support some kickstarter backers provided it's not hard to see why. 22cans are rightly giving restitution to mobile gamers for gems lost (personally I think those people deserve to be compensated for their time as well but 22cans are scared of setting that precedent) and this raises the question over why not give restitution to PC players as well. It's a little hard to see how this could happen short of a refund. Whatever 22cans think about their obligations and whether they have met those the fact remains that the PC community feels violated by 22cans and to date no roadmap has shown how this will be rectified.
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Post by Danjal on Oct 1, 2014 21:27:01 GMT
Its a pretty clear matter of perception.
To George/22cans "playing" means that it runs and you can interact with it - you can "play" Godus. They never said that it'd be enjoyable - infact Peter specifically used terms such as 'delicious' and 'zen-like' aswell as 'beautiful'.
So you see, our assumption that a game would be entertaining, is entirely a failure of judgement on our part. And our assumption that cross-platform-development would mean an equal focus on all involved platforms was similarly entirely in our minds. 22cans has done nothing 'wrong' - and stands by those claims.
Its not their fault that paying customers drew the wrong conclusions is it?!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 21:31:53 GMT
I'd wager the fine folks at 22cans are much more interested in their iOS endeavors at the moment than worrying about what words actually mean. That said, 22cans does have a long, well documented history of arguing with their community about well established word definitions and meanings. Rest assured, solid, well understood word meanings will be iterated away under the bonkers care of the 22cans narrative crew, in the fullness of time, of course. Dude, peter is a gaming legend with 20+ years experience in the industry, if he says the game is in Gamma then who are you to suggest otherwise? The fact is that PC gamers feel wronged by 22cans. When you see how much monetary support some kickstarter backers provided it's not hard to see why. 22cans are rightly giving restitution to mobile gamers for gems lost (personally I think those people deserve to be compensated for their time as well but 22cans are scared of setting that precedent) and this raises the question over why not give restitution to PC players as well. It's a little hard to see how this could happen short of a refund. Whatever 22cans think about their obligations and whether they have met those the fact remains that the PC community feels violated by 22cans and to date no roadmap has shown how this will be rectified. If Don Quixote, a lengend, says that windmill o'er yonder is a giant, who am I to suggest otherwise? I'm not a windmill engineer!
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Post by hardly on Oct 1, 2014 21:32:58 GMT
It was never guaranteed 22cans would produce a good game. I think where the betrayal comes in is that they didn't try particularly hard. Basically according to samvt they gave up on the PC game in November last year in favour of the mobile version. It's that decision and the resulting product that requires restitution. My point to George and peter would be you have for the last year (almost) been porting a mobile game to PC and I believe this is contrary to what you promised to do. If they were actually developing a PC game rather than a port I dont think we'd be having this discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2014 22:00:35 GMT
It was never guaranteed 22cans would produce a good game. I think where the betrayal comes in is that they didn't try particularly hard. Basically according to samvt they gave up on the PC game in November last year in favour of the mobile version. It's that decision and the resulting product that requires restitution. My point to George and peter would be you have for the last year (almost) been porting a mobile game to PC and I believe this is contrary to what you promised to do. If they were actually developing a PC game rather than a port I dont think we'd be having this discussion. I agree wholeheartedly.
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Post by hardly on Oct 1, 2014 22:27:48 GMT
For me I don't want a refund, I want 22cans to do what they said and having a decent crack at developing a god game for PC (and pc first btw). There is still time to do that although we'd all be better off if peter had made different decisions. I don't want a refund because I only put in $20. The only reason I'd ask for a refund is to punish 22cans and force them to change course. In this I'm trying to help them find their way.
For Qetesh and other high level backers I could see a much greater case/need for a refund. They paid a lot of money to support peter to do something that he in my opinion hasnt delivered on. I also think it's legitimate to raise the questions that have been raised about the erosion of backer benefits and extreme delays in delivering those benefits. The alpha access is a classic. Some backers paid extra money for alpha access but arguably the game is still in that state and mobile players get that access for free!
I don't think people would begrudge 22cans seeking additional revenue to support the project but this became problematic when sourcing that revenue conflicted with developing the game promised. When the focus shifted to mobile, it became less likely that Qetesh would get the game she backed and this was the point where I believed peter stopped working in the interests of the vast majority of backers. It's possible Godus would have failed without the pivot to mobile but I for one would have preferred for it to fail on PC than live like this on mobile. Certainly the gaming community would have been more forgiving had peter put his heart in soul into developing a good PC game whatever the outcome.
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Post by engarde on Oct 2, 2014 7:28:32 GMT
Actually the time I've spent trying to find a playable game on PC within this marmalade sandpit dross is much more expensive than my partner purchase price. So no, a long time ago it became much more than the KS price. Refund nah, grinding their bones to make my bread, that I would sign up for.
Leg-ends are all very well but I've been a software developer for all the time of that Leg-end timespan, so actually I will call it as still an alpha, gamma my eye, not even on a good day would this be accepted as post beta.
None of the firms I've worked for would accept what we currently have, never mind earlier iterations as even worthy of passing to test, certainly not QA - and definitely not external testers, which is that I'd expected in alpha backer mode.
But then as with many development terms and practices, in some firms QA is referred to as 'idiot boxing' so their primary task is to make sure the idiots (in the first instance the developers which developed it) have packaged everything up the idiots (that's you dear customer) expect and need into that physical box of bits you just bought - so that the idiots (in this case customer support) don't have too many calls at the point of release...
Given 22cans have pulled back CMs and QAs and Uncle Tom Cobbley and all after the iOS issue, their us of terms appear to be significantly different.
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Post by Monkeythumbz on Oct 2, 2014 9:28:42 GMT
The game is playable, in that it launches and you are able to play it. iOS users on the other hand were not so fortunate lately, hence us giving them a small present by way of an apology and as a token of our appreciation for their patience while we restored their access to the game. What you mean to say here is that the software can activate, and you can interact with it. Enjoyment's entirely subjective, but the general consensus seems to be it's about as enjoyable as watching paint dry or grass grow. However, as Danjal notes, even the iOS version could be activated, and interacted with, it's just all their progress was lost. The fact that many users were then unwilling to continue trying to use the software was not indicative of its functional capability, but their interest in bothering with repeating largely linear, time intensive interactions with the software. If they enjoy it, sure, call it playing, but for everyone else repeated behavior rarely retains its enjoyability. It becomes routine procedures, more than anything. A lot of iOS users weren't even able to launch the game in the weeks between the release of iOS 8 and the release of our compatibility patch - Godus would crash at launch or simply refuse to load. In that sense, the game was very much unplayable. This is why we felt it was necessary to give a few free gems - an item that's already available for free on PC - to affected users (and to affected users only).
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Post by Danjal on Oct 2, 2014 10:59:21 GMT
I can't help but notice how this all could've been prevented if proper planning had been in effect. Yes the iOS 8 update caused havoc - but updates causing issues is nothing new.
Moreover this isn't the first time that 22cans made a boo-boo, it is however the first time it happened to such an extent on their milk-cow. PC users have been faced with gamebreaking bugs in the past aswell - they merely got the excuse "The game is in beta." The excuse "We give a few free gems - an item thats already available for free on PC" is insult to injury considering this freemium currency has no place in the PC game in the first place. Yea, iOS release isn't in beta - because apple doesn't ALLOW beta titles. But its the same unfinished game with the same bugs and issues.
The priorities seem pretty obvious here, developing for the PC was a mistake. 22cans should never have gone into kickstarter/crowdfunding OR early access and is now facing the consequences for that decision. And as a result of that decision the PC release has effectively become a second-rate citizen, an unwanted drain on resources and a source of inconvenient negative attention.
The longer development goes on, the more obvious it becomes how little intention 22cans has on altering Godus from its freemium mobile course and PC users should just settle for having paid $20 to obtain a freemium cash-grab rather than the title that they were pitched on kickstarter or SEA. And what is the excuse we get to "warrent" that? "The cash store has been removed, you guys can get the currency in-game!" I remember when 22cans claimed that the PC version would *NEVER* see the ingame store and that those screenshots were assets and remnants exclusively from the mobile code. Whelp, guess that changed.... Just like all the other things that 22cans once 'intended' to add but conveniently got changed in favor of more freemium monetization mechanics.
Peanuts and oranges man... We paid for oranges not peanuts - just because Peter likes peanuts doesn't mean we all have to like them aswell. And adding the salt on for free when the iOS users have to pay for their salted peanuts does not change that.
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Post by Gmr Leon on Oct 2, 2014 16:03:50 GMT
What you mean to say here is that the software can activate, and you can interact with it. Enjoyment's entirely subjective, but the general consensus seems to be it's about as enjoyable as watching paint dry or grass grow. However, as Danjal notes, even the iOS version could be activated, and interacted with, it's just all their progress was lost. The fact that many users were then unwilling to continue trying to use the software was not indicative of its functional capability, but their interest in bothering with repeating largely linear, time intensive interactions with the software. If they enjoy it, sure, call it playing, but for everyone else repeated behavior rarely retains its enjoyability. It becomes routine procedures, more than anything. A lot of iOS users weren't even able to launch the game in the weeks between the release of iOS 8 and the release of our compatibility patch - Godus would crash at launch or simply refuse to load. In that sense, the game was very much unplayable. This is why we felt it was necessary to give a few free gems - an item that's already available for free on PC - to affected users (and to affected users only). Wouldn't that be a case of your attempted safeguard actually working, though? As I understood it, that's how the game was sort of supposed to work on iOS 8 until you got the compatibility patch running, due to some recognition of the potential problems that would arise (e.g. save corruption). If anything, the functional versions of the game were, kind of ironically, the problem cases in this scenario more than those that wouldn't run because they led to the need for the save recovery fix. Maybe I'm wrong here, but that's what I gathered from reading up on the recent iOS problems, so it sounds to me like the straight story would be that the gift (which isn't really of concern to me) was more for those with the save issue than those with the inability to run the game, unless they also somehow ran into the save corruption issue. Alternatively, this might be addressing those that simply couldn't run the game and purchase gems due to some Game Center bug. Again, I'm not entirely clear what this is aiming at other than those with the save issue. The inability to start the game, as I noted, seems to possibly be more of the case of your attempted safeguard working, as opposed to an actual bug. Unless the bug happened to coincide with that. Either way, I guess props for trying to do good by some people that were inconvenienced, even if that inconvenience may have been self-created. (Now let's just hope our inconveniences will be rewarded likewise with a proper PC version of the game at some point. >_>)
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Post by Danjal on Oct 2, 2014 16:15:59 GMT
**SNIP** (Now let's just hope our inconveniences will be rewarded likewise with a proper PC version of the game at some point. >_>) Amen to that. Love to see the crossplatform development return, rather than this mobile port-situation. Statements such as the following two are the ones that made many choose to support Godus and it'd be a shame if they would turn out to be false or misleading as seems currently the case. (The whole "sorry but you misinterpreted that statement" excuse is a bit shallow when its obvious what these questions intended.) Though I think many are still awaiting a response/results on things such as: And the various other 'pitched features'.
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Post by Disappointed on Oct 2, 2014 16:36:11 GMT
Here's a thing about this quote from the Kickstarter:
Will making GODUS for mobile platforms mean it will be dumbed down?
No absolutely not. We are gamers at 22cans, we love depth as much as we love innovation. We will be playing the game with you during our Alpha and Beta stages, so if anyone gives us feedback we will look at that. But we're not making a dumbed down game. The PC (Windows) version will be hands down the most beautiful!!
Note the wording there... it says 'beautiful'. And -technically- that can be interpreted as: It will -look best- on PC (what with awesome shadows, higher resolution, etc). So (as is so often the case with 22cans) they have -technically- delivered on this.
Bleargh!
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Lord Ba'al
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I like: Cats; single malt Scotch; Stargate; Amiga; fried potatoes; retro gaming; cheese; snickers; sticky tape.
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Post by Lord Ba'al on Oct 2, 2014 17:19:19 GMT
I can't help but notice how this all could've been prevented if proper planning had been in effect. Yes the iOS 8 update caused havoc - but updates causing issues is nothing new. Moreover this isn't the first time that 22cans made a boo-boo, it is however the first time it happened to such an extent on their milk-cow. PC users have been faced with gamebreaking bugs in the past aswell - they merely got the excuse "The game is in beta." The excuse "We give a few free gems - an item thats already available for free on PC" is insult to injury considering this freemium currency has no place in the PC game in the first place. Yea, iOS release isn't in beta - because apple doesn't ALLOW beta titles. But its the same unfinished game with the same bugs and issues. The priorities seem pretty obvious here, developing for the PC was a mistake. 22cans should never have gone into kickstarter/crowdfunding OR early access and is now facing the consequences for that decision. And as a result of that decision the PC release has effectively become a second-rate citizen, an unwanted drain on resources and a source of inconvenient negative attention. The longer development goes on, the more obvious it becomes how little intention 22cans has on altering Godus from its freemium mobile course and PC users should just settle for having paid $20 to obtain a freemium cash-grab rather than the title that they were pitched on kickstarter or SEA. And what is the excuse we get to "warrent" that? "The cash store has been removed, you guys can get the currency in-game!" I remember when 22cans claimed that the PC version would *NEVER* see the ingame store and that those screenshots were assets and remnants exclusively from the mobile code. Whelp, guess that changed.... Just like all the other things that 22cans once 'intended' to add but conveniently got changed in favor of more freemium monetization mechanics. Peanuts and oranges man... We paid for oranges not peanuts - just because Peter likes peanuts doesn't mean we all have to like them aswell. And adding the salt on for free when the iOS users have to pay for their salted peanuts does not change that. It's more like ordering oranges and receiving wounds. With complimentary salt.
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Post by Danjal on Oct 2, 2014 17:53:07 GMT
Last I checked, peanut allergies are pretty darned nasty. ;p
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Post by morsealworth on Oct 3, 2014 10:42:44 GMT
The game is playable, in that it launches and you are able to play it. iOS users on the other hand were not so fortunate lately, hence us giving them a small present by way of an apology and as a token of our appreciation for their patience while we restored their access to the game. the general consensus seems to be it's about as enjoyable as watching paint dry or grass grow. Objection! Watching grass grow is much more enjoyable!
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Aron
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Post by Aron on Oct 3, 2014 17:51:08 GMT
I wonder if there is any legal premise on what an acceptable time of delivery is... Aswell as to what degree it is acceptable for a product to deviate from its promised standard. It is a bit beyond that now, as they are providing things to non backers in IOS that was promised to us after pissing in our faces for years, regardless of their reasons why. They are. i hope it is allowed to say that i like woman who write/talk like this
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Aron
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Post by Aron on Oct 5, 2014 10:47:54 GMT
I wonder if there is any legal premise on what an acceptable time of delivery is... Aswell as to what degree it is acceptable for a product to deviate from its promised standard. Didi you asked this question on Kickstarter Forums ? if not i do this
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Post by Danjal on Oct 5, 2014 15:51:35 GMT
No, not a kickstarter backer myself.
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Aron
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Post by Aron on Oct 5, 2014 18:24:51 GMT
No, not a kickstarter backer myself. you dont Need to be a backer to asked this but i will ask this as soon i find the time
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chrism
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Post by chrism on Oct 8, 2014 18:38:47 GMT
You know how you accidentally come across Godus after a few weeks away? Same shit game, same shit response from 22Cans and no changes. I always amaze myself that I still get bothered by it.
If you manage to get a refund, please let me know.
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