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Post by Aynen on Dec 14, 2015 17:02:20 GMT
I don't think keeping secrets does well for communication, but before the call was made not to divulge yet what they're working on, we didn't start with a blank slate. I mean, take this thread for example. I come here of my own volition, and communicate with you in whatever limited way I can. The response:
Accusations:
"...you do sweet fuck all then.", "Pure troll.", "corporate shill".
<snip>
At some point, who shot first becomes irrelevant because nobody wants to be nice to the other guy anymore.
If this kind of response is what 22Cans has to look forward to, it's pretty damn difficult to convince them to engage in it.
Of course you can argue that they're supposed to anyway because it's early access, but that point has been argued since the start, and it hasn't yielded result.
It's not just about who is right and who is wrong, it's also about being able to convince a person (or group) to do something.
Occationally the community has been able to convince people to communicate with them, other times, they didn't convince them.
Same goes for 22Cans, sometimes they can convince the community to play nice, other times they couldn't.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Dec 14, 2015 17:15:39 GMT
No proper response, then. It's almost as if people are paying customers of 22Cans, the way they go on! |
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Post by morsealworth on Dec 14, 2015 17:16:13 GMT
If this kind of response is what 22Cans has to look forward to, it's pretty damn difficult to convince them to engage in it. Well, everything you quoted is correct response adequate to situation. If you want to look forward to different response, do it like Konrad and Raspofabs did - be honest. |
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heggers
Master
Posts: 203 
Pledge level: Partner
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Post by heggers on Dec 14, 2015 17:37:19 GMT
I'd say the community has given all the good will 22Cans is going to get and then some more. This is their bed so I'm afraid they have to sleep in it. I, like a number of others here, was here right at the beginning. I remember how positive the private forums used to be and I watched bit by bit as 22Cans dumped on every single last one of us. The community is 22Cans' child and they formed every last aspect of it with their actions
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Post by Bob The Builder on Dec 14, 2015 17:41:27 GMT
Huh... I must have missed the Kickstater section where it detailed in full your suggestion that, "We at 22cans will only be open, honest, and fulfill our promises if the community promises not to be big meanies... or point out inconsistencies... or call us on our B.S."
Your argument might hold a slight amount of water if you toasters hadn't ignored the positive community right along side the negative, over and over and over again.
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chrism
Master
Posts: 113
Pledge level: El cheapo Believer
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Post by chrism on Dec 14, 2015 18:34:22 GMT
I appear to have touched a number of nerves. My apologies for raking up old wounds.
Is there any point in collectively trying to force a closure of this project? I cannot believe there is any money left anywhere and sincerely hope that the mobile players are not still silly enough to pay to support that pile.
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Post by Crumpy Six on Dec 14, 2015 18:35:44 GMT
I don't think keeping secrets does well for communication, but before the call was made not to divulge yet what they're working on, we didn't start with a blank slate. I mean, take this thread for example. I come here of my own volition, and communicate with you in whatever limited way I can. The response: Accusations: "...you do sweet fuck all then.", "Pure troll.", "corporate shill". <snip> At some point, who shot first becomes irrelevant because nobody wants to be nice to the other guy anymore. If this kind of response is what 22Cans has to look forward to, it's pretty damn difficult to convince them to engage in it. Of course you can argue that they're supposed to anyway because it's early access, but that point has been argued since the start, and it hasn't yielded result. It's not just about who is right and who is wrong, it's also about being able to convince a person (or group) to do something. Occationally the community has been able to convince people to communicate with them, other times, they didn't convince them. Same goes for 22Cans, sometimes they can convince the community to play nice, other times they couldn't. In fairness to these respondents, Aynen (and I do not for a minute think it's acceptable to <snip>), your generous contribution here was to promise us that 22Cans are definitely working on Godus, for real except you aren't allowed to say anything about it. Which is arguably better than no response at all, except that is does leave you wide open to the very obvious criticisms that: 1. The concept of "not allowed to say" is insulting garbage for an Early Access project, and 22Cans has repeatedly promised to drop this; 2. Saying "something's happening but I can't tell you what it is" is like the kid in the playground running around shrieking "I know something you don't know!" and it should be no surprise that it wasn't warmly received. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 14, 2015 18:43:02 GMT
I don't think keeping secrets does well for communication, but before the call was made not to divulge yet what they're working on, we didn't start with a blank slate. I mean, take this thread for example. I come here of my own volition, and communicate with you in whatever limited way I can. The response: Accusations: "...you do sweet fuck all then.", "Pure troll.", "corporate shill". <snip> At some point, who shot first becomes irrelevant because nobody wants to be nice to the other guy anymore. If this kind of response is what 22Cans has to look forward to, it's pretty damn difficult to convince them to engage in it. Of course you can argue that they're supposed to anyway because it's early access, but that point has been argued since the start, and it hasn't yielded result. It's not just about who is right and who is wrong, it's also about being able to convince a person (or group) to do something. Occationally the community has been able to convince people to communicate with them, other times, they didn't convince them. Same goes for 22Cans, sometimes they can convince the community to play nice, other times they couldn't. Aynen, playing the victim won't help. This so called "game" has been in early access for 3 years, with no progress whatsoever. We have been conned, and lied to. Literally. This is not even an over exaggeration. Any 22 cans employee or representative should be embarrassed to come either on this, or Steam forum, and post anything other than concrete and concise information. So when you come here an post the same old bullshit that we have seen over the course of 3 years, what reaction exactly do you expect in return? |
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Post by Bob The Builder on Dec 14, 2015 18:46:03 GMT
I agree with Crumpy. I don't wish any Ill will towards any of you Godus-Involved and think <snip> is sad and repugnant. I do, however, hope you realise that the manner you present yourself on these forums oozes "corporate shill", less an accusation and more an observation.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Dec 14, 2015 18:54:48 GMT
I appear to have touched a number of nerves. My apologies for raking up old wounds. Is there any point in collectively trying to force a closure of this project? I cannot believe there is any money left anywhere and sincerely hope that the mobile players are not still silly enough to pay to support that pile. Actually, Godus Mobile is still doing quite well in some markets - China, Korea, Japan, etc. and a quick check on Twitter & the App Store/Google Play, lots of people "luv" it still - so they're still probably profitable there; the fact that its rife with monetization and ads apparently doesn't bother them. So, even though the desktop versions are horribly unfinished and broken - despite being the community that funded it - that doesn't mean the project on a whole its not profitable. That said, they still need to settle with the desktop/backer communities, and frankly I don't know what they're thinking by dragging it out for so long in the manner they have. |
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Post by totallytim on Dec 14, 2015 18:55:03 GMT
Since you're not a 22Cans employee I'm not really sure how well you're able to represent them. I'm not saying that your post here aren't welcome, since you and muir are the last and only thing that's linking us and them. But since you're not able to act out of your own accord because you're "not allowed or not at liberty" to disclose anything, I don't really see how you posting here shows any goodwill from 22Cans. And the 2nd part of your post almost seems like something out of the 22Cans textbook. You're almost making excuses for them. Again. After 4 years not even you can deny that we have been repeatedly treated like shit by 22Cans. And not only 22Cans as a whole. Some individuals working for the company almost went out of their way to mock us. If that wasn't intentional then they're probably the wrong people for the job... Now they wont talk to use because the community is fed up with everything they did or did not do? And after all that we're the ones AGAIN who need to turn the other cheek? That's almost as fair as the part in the 3rd Harry Potter movie, where Draco Malfoy taunts the Buckbeak and get cut which results in the hippogriff being put up for execution. What would you have us do then? We already tried everything from being extremely polite to ripping them to shreds with many steps in between and everything brings us full circle again resulting in radio silence. Really what does it take to make them open up? A gift basket? Another media shitstorm? And no, waiting patiently for another few months or blindly praising their inactivity/bad work isn't really a solution. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 14, 2015 18:57:14 GMT
I don't think keeping secrets does well for communication, but before the call was made not to divulge yet what they're working on, we didn't start with a blank slate. I mean, take this thread for example. I come here of my own volition, and communicate with you in whatever limited way I can. The response: Accusations: "...you do sweet fuck all then.", "Pure troll.", "corporate shill". <snip> At some point, who shot first becomes irrelevant because nobody wants to be nice to the other guy anymore. If this kind of response is what 22Cans has to look forward to, it's pretty damn difficult to convince them to engage in it. Of course you can argue that they're supposed to anyway because it's early access, but that point has been argued since the start, and it hasn't yielded result. It's not just about who is right and who is wrong, it's also about being able to convince a person (or group) to do something. Occationally the community has been able to convince people to communicate with them, other times, they didn't convince them. Same goes for 22Cans, sometimes they can convince the community to play nice, other times they couldn't. Also, my reference to Georgie from The Wolf Among Us, is spot on. You are the lowly "company' shill, that does the dirty work. You don't provide any meaningful service. You con the new buyers. When a new customer posts an IT problem, you con them and lie to them, saying that their issue will be looked into. When a new customer asks if the game is still being developed. You again lie to them, saying that it's still being worked on. When asked for proof, you ban people. <snip>I bet that your behavior as a Moderator on Godus forums, doesn't simply end there. Why would I expect that you apply different ethic practices in your other professional life (if you work for a living), or act differently in your personal life. You are a liar and perpetrator of a con. Any person with self integrity and ethics would have either quit, or set things right a long time ago. I do not like people like you, this world has plenty of criminal elements. From what I saw of your ethics and behavior being a Mod on Godus Steam forum, your actions leave a lot to be desired. What I learned from my personal experiences, when a person tells you that's the first time they have done something wrong, or they will never do it again. It's a double lie. It's neither the first time they have done wrong, nor is it the last time. 22 cans is a perfect example. They have said they will have open communications. They lied. They said they will continue developing Godus. They lied. You can compare the claims they have made on Kickstarter and continue to make on Steam Store page with reality, and you will see that they are nothing more than cons. You are a part of that, and your behavior and ethics are no different from Molyneux's. He just happens to make more money than you, that's all. This is why you fit in, and continue to be a part of their company. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Dec 14, 2015 19:02:23 GMT
If this kind of response is what 22Cans has to look forward to, it's pretty damn difficult to convince them to engage in it. Well, everything you quoted is correct response adequate to situation. If you want to look forward to different response, do it like Konrad and Raspofabs did - be honest. The innuendo of, or direct expression of, wishing harm, suffering, or death is never "correct response adequate to situation", even in some extreme circumstances - and certainly not in regard to this situation. It is against the Proboards policies of behavior, so DON'T DO IT. PERIOD. Please refrain from crossing those lines, even anecdotally. And, for clarification and fairness, the above quote was not intended as a "full blame" directed specifically at morsealworth , but simply a jumping off reference to make the overall point. That is all, carry on. *Edited for clarification of Proboard's policies and because I'm still a new Mod. |
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Post by Aynen on Dec 14, 2015 19:07:15 GMT
*Snip* Really what does it take to make them open up? A gift basket? Another media shitstorm? And no, waiting patiently for another few months or blindly praising their inactivity/bad work isn't really a solution. My opinion is probably the least popular one, but I really feel that it works: Just be nice to each other, with determination. It's not popular, it's not convincing, it's not fair, but I've seen it work, provided you don't give up on it. It doesn't work immediately, it'll go back and forth a lot, but eventually it does the trick. Last time the community tried it, we almost got there, then somebody did something stupid and everyone gave up. (I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about) Just like convincing 22Cans is difficult, convincing the community is difficult also. I get that me saying I can't divulge what they're working on can come off as the kid on the playground going 'neener neener', but it's not the only way I could have meant it. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 14, 2015 19:33:27 GMT
It's very nice to try and play "the good guy". However, when you are blatantly lying to the new customers under the pretense of "playing nice", you are perpetrating a con, understand that.
When you misguide and lie to the community, under the pretense of "playing nice with each other", and then banning anyone who voices their dislike for 22 cans, their actions, and shows factual information proving to the contrary any lie that comes from you or any 22 cans employee, you are perpetrating a con.
Of course you want people to "play nice", because it allows you to go on unchallenged and further deceive new customers into buying Godus. Have Godus pulled from the Steam Store page, don't con further people, and then the community might be less likely to point out your deception to any new comers.
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Post by totallytim on Dec 14, 2015 19:38:16 GMT
I wouldn't exactly call the "wait and see" strategy "it working", since they're bound to do something eventually if they wish to remain on Steam.
What you suggested is used when dealing with scared animals or sometimes children/young teens, where you hope they'll come out of their hideout and open up. Is that what 22Cans is? Is one or a series of comments enough to make them pout end erase any progress was supposedly made?
If we accept that then we might as well give up, because you can't really reason with said group of creatures when they're scared/emotional.
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Post by mindless on Dec 14, 2015 19:39:35 GMT
... Last time the community tried it, we almost got there, then somebody did something stupid and everyone gave up. (I'm sure some of you know what I'm talking about) ... please elaborate, what are you referring to, there are so many people and events this could refer to I genuinely have no idea which one you are actually talking about? also you seam to be implying its the communities fault here? is that correct? Also I think the general animosity that you are receiving is based in the fact, that your pretty much just giving us the standard soonus TM response, that we have been hearing repeatedly for years. there is a limit to how many times people can be told the same thing, over and over without anything to show for it, before they just realize its all a bunch of bull excrement and stop listening. |
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Post by totallytim on Dec 14, 2015 19:42:42 GMT
I'd imagine it's probably my comment on colin taking some time off for personal matters when I said that considering their history it's probably just a stall tactic. I think that Baal also wasn't supposed to share that information because it was told in confidence? Maybe colin was also disappointed that Baal didn't ban me for that.
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Post by hardly on Dec 14, 2015 19:56:39 GMT
I don't think keeping secrets does well for communication, but before the call was made not to divulge yet what they're working on, we didn't start with a blank slate. It's clear at this point that the secrecy is self serving. Whatever 22cans original plan was, I doubt it involved not delivering anything this calendar year. Therefore, they don't communicate to avoid being accountable. They want to avoid being accountable because they make deliberate decisions that undermine their own success. At the start of this year Konrad was communicating actively with the community which was honest and frank. The community respected Konrad and for the most part responded in a measured way. That only became a problem for 22cans when the difference between Konrad's honesty and Peter Molyneux's promises became evident. 22cans solution was more silence. The fact is the "hiding" strategy is a short term solution to a problem of non-delivery. Either you fess up with the progress you've made and your plans and face the music now or your do so in six months. Silence in the interim can't help you, only delivering can help you and it's clear you don't intend to do any of that in 2015. |
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Post by Deth on Dec 14, 2015 20:04:48 GMT
I personally think it is because the management ties the hands of their community manager rather then community that has killed communications. Any community rep worth his salt is going to know that there are going to be trolls and they learn/know how to deal with them. We had some promising CMs and I would love if one of them would drop by and let us know if it is because of the trolls in the community that they left or if other factors caused them to leave. I think it was other factors but doubt they will replay as they would not want to burn any bridges.
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