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Post by Gmr Leon on Dec 16, 2015 4:15:22 GMT
To sum it up. My concern is for the tens of thousands of people who got scammed, lied to, and abused by Molyneux, Simon and Aynen, just to name a few. Those are the people I feel bad for. Those are the people who deserve sympathy, compassion and understanding. At this point, I think I see your point, and the main part on which I disagree is merely the degree to which you seem to be suggesting we judge them. Equating them to the lowest criminals is simply absurd and giving them far too much credit. There's no denying that all involved, whatever their intentions, by not taking responsibility for the results of their actions, are being assholes. Molyneux and company basically hired Simon to apologize for him because no one takes his apologies seriously anymore, but the fact that he seems to think we'll take a no-name (no offense Simon) person's apologies over his is ridiculous. It completely disregards that the only legitimate apology at this point is to deliver a quality product.
I think that's one point on which we can all agree. Regardless of our sentiments towards what comeuppance we may believe should fall upon them for their transgressions, the simplest point is that we want them to deliver what they stated they would. As well as, after the fact, to get the hell out of any customer-oriented business since they're clearly antagonistic towards customers and can't be trusted to provide any consistent service to them (at least the management can't, who the hell knows what those under them could do on their own). That's the basic point, right? Fuck 22cans, make our thing so we can ditch any attention directed to you, and here's to hoping no one else gives you their business again, yeah? I don't think anyone here is being anything like an apologist, beyond trying to maintain some basic civility, with which associating and inflating 22cans' egos with comparisons to grandiose criminals and expressing a desire to see them crushed by the consequences catching up to them is coming close to disrupting. We can easily poke them in the eye without giving them that much credit, as Digital Jam, earlparvisjam , and Mandrake (among others here) have frequently (if at times inconsistently) done. ...I mean, let's be real here, Molyneux's the kind of asshole who would plan to rob a bank, think he thought of almost everything, and then forget to refuel the getaway car and wear a ski mask to hide his identity, getting arrested an hour or two later stopping at a gas station to keep fleeing. He's at worst a petty as hell criminal who has scraped by through sheer luck and the generosity of others, and if he's a felon, it's by pure incompetence and ignorance I'd say more than anything. Not that that excuses him, mind you! By no means! At heart he's still a greedy bastard who clumsily stumbled into fraudulent action because he's somehow simultaneously a terrible planner that recognizes this yet buys into his own old praise as a "great designer" and fucks everyone over in the process, including himself. Dude's literally his own worst enemy, because he wants to steal from the world yet can't help outing himself in the process. |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Dec 16, 2015 4:19:14 GMT
It doesn't open in the States until the 18th right? Must be why all those people are flying to France to watch it. Where are you Tim? I have a 7:30 PM ticket on the 17 here is GA, USA. I didn't pre-order. I figured I'll check out an early weekend showing and should be fine. Hopefully. Of the four area theaters we have, I should be able to find tickets available. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 16, 2015 4:59:01 GMT
So, why is Aynen coming here, continuing to lie, and feed you the same "soonus", "can't talk bout it" tolerated and a good thing? Answer me that. Well, despite circumstances, he has opinions and viewpoints that are still a part of the discussion and is absolutely welcome here as part of the community on a whole. To make an informed analysis, all angles must be observed. As to the why, only Aynen knows. However, the sentiment is that, despite a hostile environment, he - above anyone else - still comes and expresses his side of things now and then. There's at least a bit of respect to be given for that, even if you question his intent or disagree with his reasoning. He is welcome to come an join in on the discussions. But he is not welcome to tow the company line, I meant lie, of "soonus", "they are working on it", "I can't tell you what it is, but it will be grand". Those are not his opinions, those are lies. He is not welcome here to lie to us. |
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Post by petermolyneux on Dec 16, 2015 5:50:22 GMT
And people wonder why 22cans don't post to the community any more.... *Looks up gillburt's Steam Godus post history*
I brought this up a couple months ago. He's not an apologist, it's a sockpuppet run by one of our friends at 22Cans. All the other 0-level, private account shills usually just post once or twice about how great the game is and then leave, this one has been ham-handedly attempting to "evenly" cover for them for the past two years while deflecting and whitewashing their words/actions in a manner that seems to line up with the evolution of Aynen's narrative to the current state of "Peter made a silly mistake, the community is mean". Looking over gillburt's posts from said time period seems to indicate that the author is attempting to crudely cover up/deviate from their actual writing style. Don't have access to the IP logs, so I can't tell for sure, but it seems that Aynen may have decided to start using his "gillburt" account on these forums.
The post history in question: steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198077122311/posthistory/?p=18
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Post by Crumpy Six on Dec 16, 2015 8:03:39 GMT
Determinations of sockpuppetry can presumably be made by the admin (if he chooses) as he can see user IP addresses. For lack of any definitive evidence, and for the sake of civil discourse, I think we should asssume nobody is anyone's sockpuppet.
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Post by Qetesh on Dec 16, 2015 8:30:02 GMT
I kinda like having this forum and since Ba'al and I do not own it and do not have cash enough to fund a private one, then as stated all Proboards rules must at all times be followed.
If anyone wishes to do things against it, it will be removed, if you don't like that sorry. Proboards also forbids nudity and child porn so consider it in the same light as far as enforcement of removal. There is also to be no discussion about said topic against rules since it is an inference of it, in itself.
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Please get back to OT and within Proboards rules or thread will be locked.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Dec 16, 2015 17:06:43 GMT
Determinations of sockpuppetry can presumably be made by the admin (if he chooses) as he can see user IP addresses. For lack of any definitive evidence, and for the sake of civil discourse, I think we should asssume nobody is anyone's sockpuppet. Precisely. I can at least confirm that the IPs of gillburt and Aynen are pinging from separate countries. So, lets put that to rest. We're really delving into sspeculation and conspiracies that do nothing to move the narrative further. Looking for rats in the cellar only works to generate paranoia and draws a deeper decisive rift in the community. The true pursuit should be holding 22Cans accountable for clear and proovable indiscretions, not perceived subterfuge and sockpuppetry. On the other topic going on here; should the Star Wars discussion posts be relocated to the "Whatever: OffTopics" subforum? It's sort of disrupted the OP topic discussion. Or we can leave it here as "organic conversation". I'll leave it up to chrism and the community to decide. |
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Post by Deth on Dec 16, 2015 17:30:04 GMT
Precisely. I can at least confirm that the IPs of gillburt and Aynen are pinging from separate countries. So, lets put that to rest. We're really delving into sspeculation and conspiracies that do nothing to move the narrative further. Looking for rats in the cellar only works to generate paranoia and draws a deeper decisive rift in the community. The true pursuit should be holding 22Cans accountable for clear and proovable indiscretions, not perceived subterfuge and sockpuppetry. On the other topic going on here; should the Star Wars discussion posts be relocated to the "Whatever: OffTopics" subforum? It's sort of disrupted the OP topic discussion. Or we can leave it here as "organic conversation". I'll leave it up to chrism and the community to decide. As RPG player it is a time honored job hunting rats in a cellar. I cannot tell you how many NPCs have asked me to go down there and kill rats. /9-> |
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Post by 13thGeneral on Dec 16, 2015 17:55:16 GMT
Precisely. I can at least confirm that the IPs of gillburt and Aynen are pinging from separate countries. So, lets put that to rest. We're really delving into sspeculation and conspiracies that do nothing to move the narrative further. Looking for rats in the cellar only works to generate paranoia and draws a deeper decisive rift in the community. The true pursuit should be holding 22Cans accountable for clear and proovable indiscretions, not perceived subterfuge and sockpuppetry. On the other topic going on here; should the Star Wars discussion posts be relocated to the "Whatever: OffTopics" subforum? It's sort of disrupted the OP topic discussion. Or we can leave it here as "organic conversation". I'll leave it up to chrism and the community to decide. As RPG player it is a time honored job hunting rats in a cellar. I cannot tell you how many NPCs have asked me to go down there and kill rats. /9-> Heh. I'd be lying if that wasn't the inspiration for that statement. It's a time honoured game trope that I figured a majority of the community would understand. There are far grander quests to pursue than fighting rats in the cellar. |
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Post by Bob The Builder on Dec 16, 2015 18:40:08 GMT
Ha. I decided to replay FFXII after finishing off Fallout 4 last weekend. First objective presented is killing rats in a sewer.
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Post by Mandrake on Dec 16, 2015 20:40:36 GMT
I don't disagree with you on that, tho I've certainly seen worse community forums where devs still interacted despite some... intense individuals. The overall emotion here is that they could certainly have done much over the years to quell the playerbase community, but instead treat it like an awkward, pesky neighbor; they try to avoid us when its they whom are actually the oddball on the block. All we want is for them to mow their lawn once in a while, maybe a fresh coat of paint, and leash their stray dogs. They react by pulling the blinds, triple locking the door, and turning out the lights. At some point we're going to be leaving harsh notes on windshields and banging on the door. The solution has always been simple. The funny thing is that, despite the grumbling, 22cans has a relatively sweet community. I know some of the communities you speak of, have had to deal with them in the past (and it CAN be a nightmare, especially when a coworker mucks something up and you have to deal with it), and 22cans have really had it easy. Those also weren't communities that had competition built integral to the foundations, such as Quake clans and multiplayer ladder games, but rather single-player games. I'm fairly sure that you know of the "glittering gems of hatred" and how they've been a riled mess to deal with ever since Herve Caen sunk his hooks into Interplay to make even worse "Fallout" games than anything Bethesda have done since. (That is why I laugh when people cry that "Bethesda is bullying Interplay with Fallout lawsuits" when the franchise is now in obviously better hands than the French Peter Molyneux - and to nod to Gmr Leon's excellent reply, indeed Molyneux is simply "The Guildford Game Grifter"; just a petty get-rich-quick schemer, but unfortunately they can ruin the altruism of crowdfunding backers along with everything else they touch.) But unlike 22cans, those aforementioned developers usually don't have "anti-CMs" of Aynen who blame the fans for their problems*, don't blame the community for the reaction towards the first bit of developer honesty, despite the developers routinely lying to those communities. Those developers really don't blame their communities for the developer being caught at their own lies. It is hard to offer any recognition to Aynen for posting what he has in this thread when basically all he's doing is lying and teasing with these vague reassurances that say nothing but empty hype long after that could remotely have a place. "Well, the others are as involved as me. But we're not always at liberty to discuss how. Stuff is happening, people are working on the game and on community stuff. I'm just not allowed to say what exactly." - This is from someone, as a representative of 22cans, whose delete and lies game were supposed to "convince the community to play nice" when in fact it just kept making the exact opposite happen; compared to his actions his words are meaningless insult layered on top of those actions. Apparently neither are those who are working "on community stuff" able to comment, despite having plenty of time to do so since...9/11 - now for some gallows humor (not threatening, wishing anyone harm, etc. etc. etc. etc.): If this were 14 years ago, from the communications given, it would appear that the 22cans offices were located in the WTC. The bigger problem is that even when 22cans has been approached, in a manner that appears to have been specifically designed to coddle children to "convince 22cans to speak to the community" (wait, I thought they were working on "community stuff"? Which is it going to be?), they still refused to really work with the community and those in the community reaching out to them, often using something irrelevant as an excuse as to why they can't talk anymore. That is, when 22can'tbearsed has a functioning CM. 22cans have had every opportunity, that to try to play the tone argument game is a little late; in another wasted opportunity, Simon tried the same argument to hilarious effect in article comments, about how the new apologist thinks customers are more stupid than Peter Molyneux's estimation of the same. No, the whole "play nice and maybe something will happen" game doesn't really matter in light of that, since 22cans appears to be determined to turn off everyone from the title, fan or otherwise; we've seen how Simon has marginalised the feedback as "99% calling it shit" while Colin renders it down to a numerical tally of Likes. The only time 22cans has been anything close to honest is when they have been caught dead to rights, to which they'll try to blame the community as obvious part of official company policy. There is nothing owed on part of the community, they are not obliged to be anything; 22cans has an obligation to do what they said to acquire that money, along with how they have sold their product upon Steam, that the ball has always been in their court...then they kick the ball back between their own legs into their own net and cry at the community as if the community wasn't playing fair. If 22cans had tried this shit on those communities...that would have been hilarious, really, but most of those communities moved on after PM obviously didn't understand "open world" when spinning his Fables. I really think it's funny how 22cans tries to portray that they have it anywhere close to rough with their community when they're simply trying to shift the blame outside of the obvious part that the whole situation started from PM lying to scam people for a product he never intended to make. Smile and wave to the scammers**, folks! We don't want to hurt their feewings or anything... * - Or if they do, they generally don't last long. ** - And their accessories. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 17, 2015 0:47:51 GMT
To be clear:
Here's the rule: "Depicts excessive violence, contains comments or images that are offensive, abusive, threatening, harassing or menacing, or that incites, encourages or threatens physical harm against another;"
1. My statement neither depicted excessive violence. Note how even the rule states EXCESSIVE, not that violence in itself is against the rules.
2. My statement did not contain any images
3. There was no abuse in my statement
4. There were no threats in my statement
5. My statements were not harassing or menacing
6. I did not incite, encourage or threaten any physical harm against another.
So what rule exactly was broken? Saying that your wish someone something bad, does not break any of the caveats I quoted above, as it's simply an opinion a person can hold.
Again, to be clear, do differentiate between what it means to actively solicit and incite harm, versus voicing an opinion. So stop jumping on the politically correct wagon, and think with the brain God gave you for a second.
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Post by Drake on Dec 17, 2015 0:56:50 GMT
Wishing someone ill is not the same as saying "lets go hunt him down and string him up". So unless we gonna start making up a list of "unwritten rules" (where have I heard that before), I suggest we drop the charade that Aynen put up of "lets play nice", and "bend over backwards so I can lie to you some more".
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Post by petermolyneux on Dec 17, 2015 2:12:29 GMT
Wishing someone ill is not the same as saying "lets go hunt him down and string him up". So unless we gonna start making up a list of "unwritten rules" (where have I heard that before), I suggest we drop the charade that Aynen put up of "lets play nice", and "bend over backwards so I can lie to you some more". "Georgie" is violently murdered by the protagonist of the game you are referencing. Nobody is saying Aynen is right or even a decent person, but there's no bloody reason for these sanctimonious rants from either you or Mandrake. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 17, 2015 2:20:15 GMT
First of all, how Georgie passes, depends on how the game plays out.
Second, I compared him to Georgie, because he is a lackey to 22 cons and does their "dirty" work.
Third, as I said before, wishing someone ill, is not inciting violence. Huge difference between the two. So learn to think before you jump on the PC wagon.
I wish "this happens to you", versus "lets find this guy and string him up". If you don't see the difference, you are brain dead or illiterate.
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Post by 13thGeneral on Dec 17, 2015 2:26:33 GMT
Wishing someone ill is not the same as saying "lets go hunt him down and string him up". So unless we gonna start making up a list of "unwritten rules" (where have I heard that before), I suggest we drop the charade that Aynen put up of "lets play nice", and "bend over backwards so I can lie to you some more". "Georgie" is violently murdered by the protagonist of the game you are referencing. Nobody is saying Aynen is right or even a decent person, but there's no bloody reason for these sanctimonious rants from either you or Mandrake. Precisely. This just isn't the venue for that exchange. Typically I would suggest moving such discussions to a subforum here, but apparently the Proboards rules would not allow for even that. That aside, it's really not the best cause to be championing for here anyhow. Let's put the focus back on the bigger target. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 17, 2015 2:33:56 GMT
First, reference my post right above yours.
Second, the reason this needs to be addressed here, is because unless you want to start making up your own unwritten rules, like on Godus Steam forums, I suggest to settle this issue, however unpopular it might be.
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Post by Deth on Dec 17, 2015 2:36:19 GMT
Yes it is different, but just about every forum I have been on does not allow "I wish you would die." in any shape or form. It is a form of cyber bullying and I am pretty sure people have killed themselves over such comments. And in the long run it just leads down a path that makes others then the speaker and the target uncomfortable and yes I am one of those people. We understand you do not like the guy and feel you can say what ever you want. Well you are a guest here and like it or not there are rules set up by proboards that @qetesh and Lord Ba'al have chosen to follow in the generally accepted way. If you can not accept that, then expect to be moderated. Personally I value you option as I do all people on the board so would hope this would not drive you away, but also hope that you can understand where others are coming from and back off a little. |
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Post by Drake on Dec 17, 2015 2:43:32 GMT
To further my point,
If I say: I wish <snip> Is that against the rules?
But if I say: I wish <snip> All of a sudden that's against the rules? Why? Because Aynen happens to be coming to these boards and feeding you shit?
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Post by Drake on Dec 17, 2015 2:46:21 GMT
Yes it is different, but just about every forum I have been on does not allow "I wish you would die." in any shape or form. It is a form of cyber bullying and I am pretty sure people have killed themselves over such comments. And in the long run it just leads down a path that makes others then the speaker and the target uncomfortable and yes I am one of those people. We understand you do not like the guy and feel you can say what ever you want. Well you are a guest here and like it or not there are rules set up by proboards that @qetesh and Lord Ba'al have chosen to follow in the generally accepted way. If you can not accept that, then expect to be moderated. Personally I value you option as I do all people on the board so would hope this would not drive you away, but also hope that you can understand where others are coming from and back off a little. Again, read the rule ""Depicts excessive violence, contains comments or images that are offensive, abusive, threatening, harassing or menacing, or that incites, encourages or threatens physical harm against another;"" It even states "excessive violence". Not that even talk of violence itself is prohibited. The other contention was "threats", and "inciting", and in none of my posts did I threaten, or incited violence. |
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